Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
DEFRA AND NFU
23 FEBRUARY 2005
Q60 Mr Steinberg: My last question
at this stage: is it not about time that the policy was moved
in the direction of the farmer being more responsible for his
own livestock and land than the taxpayer and that an insurance
policy for farmers, even if it is through DEFRA—I do not
know—should be looked at and they should not depend upon
100% basic payment and compensation from the taxpayer?
Sir Brian Bender: The answer to
your question is yes, though the route we prefer to go down and
will be consulting on, I hope later this year, is a levy based
system with a pump priming shared between the industry and Government.
That is still a route to answering your question positively.
Mr Jenkins: Sir Brian, I am sitting here
thinking can you tell me another industry where the risk associated
with polluting or accident is picked up by the taxpayer?
Mr Curry: The coal industry.
Chairman: Mr Curry says the coal industry.
Q61 Mr Jenkins: Yes, the coal industry
is an excellent industry. We paid out £2.4 billion to half
a million people who worked in the industry who had been injured
personally by their exposure to the industry. I do not think we
could look at this as a one-off payment, this is a recurring situation,
not only BSE but Foot and Mouth.
Sir Brian Bender: If you remember,
it was just over a year ago when this Committee had a hearing
on plant health—There are some areas where we have a legal
requirement to compensate but, nonetheless, the question is the
extent to which the farmer, animal keeper themselves should share
that responsibility, and that is, as I said to Mr Steinberg, a
direction we wish to move in.
Q62 Mr Jenkins: One of the things
which amazes me, is on page 36 under figure 11, are examples of
problems found on invoices submitted. Five down it says "Shredding
of support documentation". Why do you think people shred
documentation while there is a claim still proceeding?
Sir Brian Bender: Perhaps I can
ask my Procurement Director, Mr Rabey?
Q63 Mr Jenkins: Did he shred the
documentation?
Sir Brian Bender: No, but he is
the one who has been pursuing these claims vigilantly since 2001.
Mr Rabey: The example of shredding
documentation is currently with the police.
Q64 Mr Jenkins: Yes, it is fraud,
is it not?
Sir Brian Bender: That is why
it is with the police.
Q65 Mr Jenkins: There is a complete
list of problems like that on the form which is an indication
of the mindset of people involved in the industry.
Sir Brian Bender: Some of these
were contractors that we are talking about who were not in the
farming industry, but in the logistics part of it. We have been
pursuing—in response to the Chairman's question earlier—cases
where we think we have been overcharged very strongly for the
last two or three years and in some cases through the courts.
Where we can settle by mediation we are doing so.
Q66 Mr Jenkins: When Mr Steinberg
pointed out to you some of the criticisms of the European Commission
and particularly the cost—I loved your reasoning there,
I thought that was bloody ingenious—this bull was a yearling
bull and it is four months older and its valuation goes from £14,000
to £40,000, can you talk me through that, why they go up
like that? If I had a bull I was selling worth £40,000 in
four months' time, I do not think I would sell it for £14,000.
Sir Brian Bender: The information
I have, as I say, is that the bull was a yearling, it was due
to lay down a bank of semen for use in a champion herd. We did
nonetheless query the valuation before paying it and the valuer
said he had done it very thoroughly, it took two days and this
would be an animal which was impossible to replace. Now that is
one particular case so that is the information I have on that
case.
Q67 Mr Jenkins: That was it. The
valuer said it took two days to value this bull, the person who
sold the bull four months ago did not realise the bull would be
worth that much money and sold it for £14,000?
Sir Brian Bender: I think looking
forward, the arrangements we have with the national list of valuers—which
were described to Mr Steinberg—are intended to ensure, whatever
happened in the past, there are not abuses in the future.
Q68 Mr Jenkins: We will look forward,
we shall not look back because it is better to look forward with
your Department rather than backwards. We are always promised
one thing: things are going to get better. Then you come before
this Committee and we are given promises. We are promised that
the biosecurity and movement of animals in this country is far,
far better than it has ever been and yet our Report shows there
are offences still being committed today by farmers and animal
movement people. What are you going to do to stop this?
Sir Brian Bender: Do you want
to say what we are doing on the farm health plans clamping down
on biosecurity?
Dr Reynolds: Yes. Farm health
plans is one of the major initiatives in the animal health and
welfare strategy and we have a working group there to look at
sharing best practice. It is based on individual sectors. The
pig sector is particularly active there. This is an area where
each farm is going to be encouraged to have their own farm health
plan to set out their approach individually to handle new risk.
On biosecurity, it is one of the main considerations on bringing
in the current animal movement regime which has to be associated
with high standards of biosecurity. Only this week there is a
new promotion on a poster and advertising campaign to particularly
address biosecurity in markets.
Q69 Mr Jenkins: We can all sleep
at night then, can we?
Dr Reynolds: It is all a question
of reducing risk, is it not?
Q70 Mr Jenkins: What are you going
to do to stop it? There are people out there who are not complying
with the rules and regulations, what are you doing to stop it?
Sir Brian Bender: Through targeted
inspections co-ordinated between local government and the State
Veterinary Service based on risk assessments.
Q71 Mr Jenkins: Are we setting up
those targeted inspections? What plan have you got and what risk
analysis have you done? What wagons are you stopping because it
is a high risk index?
Ms Stacey: We have a framework
agreement in place with local authorities which enables local
authorities to work with our SVS staff to identify on a risk-based
approach those which they should be targeting. That is done taking
into account the nature and scale of the businesses that we are
looking at and also it allows for local knowledge to be put in.
Q72 Mr Jenkins: Excellent. Where
is the highest risk area? Is it a particular geographical area
or is it a particular commodity?
Dr Reynolds: There are a number
of areas of risk. The particular risks are in areas of high animal
density and where there are significant movements of animals.
Q73 Mr Jenkins: Yes.
Dr Reynolds: Those are two particular
risk areas and that is why, of course, the animal movement regime
was brought in with a six day standstill from the time of arrival
of a consignment of animals on a farm before further animals could
move off: six days in the case of cattle and sheep and 20 days
for pigs.
Q74 Mr Jenkins: You are satisfied
that your inspection regime is rigid enough to stop and reduce
the number of infringements we are seeing today in the industry?
Sir Brian Bender: No. I am satisfied
with the second verb you used, "reduce". There is more
we have to do in terms of risk based targeted inspection to deal
with these.
Q75 Mr Jenkins: Tell me what you
have to do?
Sir Brian Bender: We have to pursue
more the sort of approach that Ms Stacey was referring to a few
minutes ago.
Ms Stacey: That is right. We do
have operational partners out there: local authorities, trading
standards officers, for example. We have a pool of local knowledge
but we need to be more systematic in exchanging that and making
decisions about what to do with it.
Q76 Mr Jenkins: I think I have seen
a figure in the Report that 23% of vehicles stopped either did
not have the correct documentation or the vehicle itself was not
acceptable. What sort of figure would you like to see, 10%, 5%?
What is your target percentage of movements that the police or
authorities would stop that would meet the laid down criteria?
Ms Stacey: The approach has been
to identify those sites that are highest risk, for example every
vehicle that is moving in and out of the market is actually checked.
The approach has been to identify high risk.
Q77 Mr Jenkins: 23% at the present
time, so what is the figure that you are targeting? Is it 10%,
20%? When do you intend to meet the target?
Sir Brian Bender: I cannot answer
that. We can provide a note if it would help.[5]
Q78 Mr Jenkins: I have not even got off
page one yet. If there was another outbreak, how confident are
you that you would get that outbreak notified within two days
of it being identified or being picked up?
Sir Brian Bender: How confident
is a very difficult question to answer. Through the combination
of greater awareness, through the information we have put out
to farmers, through the increased emphasis on biosecurity, through
our own surveillance strategy that the Chief Vet can say more
about, through the inspection arrangements, we would be more optimistic
than we were. Will there ever be another Bobby Waugh, I cannot
say that. We are talking about risk reduction here.
Q79 Mr Jenkins: Does your contingency
plan take into consideration the deliberate introduction of the
disease on our farms?
Sir Brian Bender: Yes. First of
all, at a general level it is hard to imagine a deliberate introduction
of one strain being more damaging than it was in 2001 when there
was a virus on over 50 farms in a very geographically dispersed
area. Our contingency plan is intended to deal with that sort
of situation. Secondly, if there were a number of different strains,
which deliberate introduction could involve, we believe that the
combination of diagnosis, laboratory facilities and, indeed, if
it came to it, vaccination antigens could also tackle that. Certainly
our planning addresses the possibility of deliberate introduction
either of a single strain, which as I say would be the same sort
of situation, or of several strains.
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