Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-113)
NORTHERN IRELAND
DEPARTMENT FOR
EMPLOYMENT AND
LEARNING
2 MARCH 2005
Q100 Mr Davidson: No, that is not the
case. It does not say that they welcome what you have done. It
says that the NIAO welcomes the fact that you have got new objectives
but that basically the way in which you are proposing to apply
them is not adequate. What it says here is, "It should report
on achievement against these objectives on an annual basis",
which makes me assume that you had not been going to do that previously.
Similarly, it says you should set associated targets which are
"specific, measurable and time-bounded", which makes
me assume that you were not going to do that anyway. Why were
you not going to do that anyway when surely that is basic, fundamental
management?
Mr Haire: We had a set of objectives
before but the Report emphasised that we had moved in 1997-1998
to ones where we had some qualifications. We have now emphasised
once more the employment area. We have a range of objectives in
this area and clearly we have been refining them as the scheme
has developed.
Q101 Mr Davidson: Yes, that is telling
me what I knew already. Explain to me why, when you had these
objectives, you had not already, before the Audit Office came
along, set targets which were "specific, measurable and time-bounded".
Why had you not done that before? What failing is there in your
system that the Audit Office has to come and tell you to do such
a basic part of management?
Mr Haire: We had objectives before
this time and clearly the Audit Office will—
Q102 Mr Davidson: I know you had objectives
but you did not have targets.
Mr Haire: We had targets in all
these areas and they want us to continue to refine and develop
those.
Q103 Mr Davidson: We will not get much
further there. Can I ask the Northern Ireland Audit Office, and
I think we have raised this point with you before, do you think
that your Reports are sufficiently robust given the scale of difficulties
you are facing? Would it be fair for me to say that it seems to
me that you are pulling your punches in a number of areas here
because you are taking into account just how poor the performance
is and therefore being less robust than perhaps the department
in the United Kingdom would be?
Mr Dowdall: I do not think we
consciously pull our punches. We do tend to confine ourselves
to putting the facts before you and maybe not pushing on to the
judgement that you might make on those facts because, with a report
like this, we know it is coming before the committee and I see
my primary job as being to give you the facts and you are quite
capable of making the judgement on value for money beyond that.
Q104 Mr Davidson: I think you understand
the point that is being made. Mr Haire, if you look at paragraph
3.19, there has to be a recommendation made that you do benchmarking.
I am quite frankly astonished that grown-ups in your position
have not done some sort of benchmarking already. Presumably you
are aware of benchmarking and the principle of seeking best practice
elsewhere. Why have you not done any of it?
Mr Haire: We have. The external
evaluation which was being carried out was indeed giving us good
comparative data here. We meet regularly, as I say, with the other
authorities to look at this.[15]
Q105 Mr Davidson: If you are doing all
this why would the Audit Office have to make a recommendation
saying that you carry out research to identify similar schemes
and then benchmark? If you are doing all this you surely should
have objected to the recommendation?
Mr Haire: They are asking us here
to formally benchmark at the end of this process and we accept
that we need to do this more formally.
Q106 Mr Davidson: Have you been doing
it informally then? How do you informally benchmark?
Mr Haire: The schemes are all
subtly different in the process here.
Q107 Mr Davidson: I can see where you
are going. I used to chair education in Strathclyde and I was
chair of further education and I used to get these reports about
youth unemployment there, and I recognise the difference between
an explanation and an alibi. The fact of subtle differences we
accept, but I am not accepting that as a reason for not having
done benchmarking. That type of response is inadequate. Could
I turn to paragraph 4.1 about the objectives of the scheme originally?
Can you clarify for me who it was that established the objectives
of Jobskills originally? Why was it? Who was responsible for not
having the attainment of jobs as an objective and who was it who
was responsible for not having any objective to match training
provision with the skills needs of the Northern Ireland economy?
Was that done by yourselves?
Mr Haire: At this time the scheme
was run by an executive agency of the former department and it
was done by the board of the Training and Employment Agency.
Q108 Mr Davidson: Okay. I find it astonishing
that the department in paragraph 4.2 says that you did not collect
any data. Nobody in the governmental system in Northern Ireland
collected any data apparently about the needs of the Northern
Ireland economy in terms of future skills. How did something like
that come to pass? What were people there doing? Did it never
occur to anybody that that might have been a good idea?
Mr Haire: At that time of very
high unemployment that agency was looking more at broader skills.
By 1998-99 the agency started to invest heavily in the skills
monitoring process which is referred to in the report and started
to build the task force on skills to get exactly that sort of
data and in the light of that we set priority skills areas for
training to make sure that match was effective there.
Q109 Mr Davidson: That is a useful point.
It does not actually respond to the question I asked but nonetheless
is welcome in terms of clarification. If we can turn to paragraph
4.17 there is a useful point here, saying that 29% indicated that
they did not use the skills learnt at all and a further 20% indicated
that they only used the skills a little. When you had got that
information did that cause changes to be made in the way in which
the schemes were structured or were any lessons drawn from that
analysis?
Mr Haire: We have two pilot areas
here to try and help especially the low achievers, the people
on the Access scheme, to get into programmes where there is more
choice in that area and into other schemes to try and help people
at a higher level. During the last year we have focused our career
service on the quality of information given to young people to
help them make choices more effectively. We have also worked with
our colleagues in the Department of Education so that young people
of 14-16 are experiencing—
Q110 Mr Davidson: I do not understand
though how this relates to the question I asked you. What I actually
asked you was that in paragraph 4.17 it says about halfway down,
"29% indicated they did not use the skills learnt `at all'
and a further 20% indicated they only used the skills `a little'".
What I asked you was that once you had that information did you
take any action to try and amend or restructure your scheme in
order to address those identified difficulties?
Mr Haire: The focus we had was
to make sure that people who chose within the menu of that scheme
were making informed decisions as they entered that scheme about
the sorts of areas they wished to work in. At the same time, as
I stressed before, the Key Skills in that area were giving broad
generic skills which are relevant to a wide range of opportunities,
including, obviously, dealing with the employers' need for numeracy
and literacy skills.
Q111 Mr Davidson: In those circumstances
would I be right to think that if we get a report back from you
in, say, another year or so, these figures should all be drastically
improved because you will have corrected the imbalances?
Mr Haire: Clearly I wish to see
a better meeting of young people's expectations but on the other
hand young people at this stage are changing their views on what
they want and therefore a perfect match is unlikely.
Q112 Mr Davidson: I understand the perfect
match point, but what would you regard as acceptable figures in
that regard? I accept that you would not get either of them down
to nothing.
Mr Haire: Clearly I would hope
to see those below 20% in this process.
Mr Davidson: One is at 20 so it would
not be hard.
Chairman: Mr Haire, do us a note. [16]
Q113 Mr Jenkins: Could you also give
us a note on recommendation 3.13 because it says that the department
failed to monitor the achievement of Key Skills. Can you tell
me why you failed to monitor and how you intend to do so please?
Chairman: Do us a note on that, Mr Haire.
[17]This
is a good opportunity as there is a division to call an end to
this inquiry. May I say that we are not convinced that all your
training providers are performing satisfactorily. We are not convinced
you are performing this programme adequately for young people
in Northern Ireland, or indeed for industry in Northern Ireland.
We are not convinced you have a sufficient grip on reforming irregularities.
You can expect a very robust report and just because Stormont
is suspended let no-one in Northern Ireland departments think
that the light of parliamentary scrutiny will not shine on them.
Thank you very much.
15 Note by Witness: Quarterly meetings are held between
officials in England, Wales, Scotland, N Ireland and Republic
of Ireland. Back
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Ev 17 Back
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Ev 17 Back
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