Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
DEPARTMENT OF
CULTURE, MEDIA
AND SPORT
AND THE
ROYAL PARKS
2 NOVEMBER 2005
Q60 Kitty Ussher: Is that information
available to the friends of groups?
Mr Camley: I am happy to make
it available. I am not sure we have made it available[2].
Q61 Mr Davidson: How many people use
the parks?
Mr Camley: The most recent, accurate
figure we have is 29 million people in 1995.
Q62 Mr Davidson: What was the figure
in the last annual report?
Mr Camley: We did not have a figure
in the last annual report. At the time the National Audit Office
did their Report, the figure in that Report was 60 million.
I apologise to the Committee but that figure was wrong. I know
it was wrong because nobody knew what the figure was.
Q63 Mr Davidson: In the last annual
report but one, the figure of 60 million was in as the number
of users. How did that figure appear?
Mr Camley: I have tried to find
out in the six months I have been here how that figure was arrived
at. There does not seem to be any corporate knowledge as to how
it was arrived at.
Q64 Mr Davidson: There does not seem
to be any corporate knowledge? What does that mean in English?
Mr Camley: Having questioned people
in the parks about how the figure of 60 million was arrived at,
no one seems to be able to provide a rational explanation.
Q65 Mr Davidson: Has anybody been
able to find an irrational explanation?
Mr Camley: It is not an irrational
explanation but people have suggested that it may have been some
form of extrapolation. You start with 29 million; you assume it
might rise 5% per year and so on.
Q66 Mr Davidson: Do you think this
tells us a great deal about the way in which The Royal Parks are
being managed?
Mr Camley: It tells us, particularly
in terms of that figure, that the approach we were taking was
inappropriate and we should not have been putting that figure
before Parliament if we could not substantiate it.
Q67 Mr Davidson: That is right. You
gave Parliament a figure which was made up about the number of
users. That does really tell us something about the management
of the parks in general. Can you tell us how many other figures
that you have given Parliament over the years have been made up?
Mr Camley: As far as I am aware,
there are no other figures.
Q68 Mr Davidson: Were you aware of
this figure having been made up?
Mr Camley: I was as soon as I
became Chief Executive.
Q69 Mr Davidson: In terms of assessing
now who uses and what opinions are, I have a number of reservations
about this. How do you know now who uses the parks and what social
backgrounds they are from?
Mr Camley: We conduct surveys.
We have employed a professional surveying body.
Q70 Mr Davidson: Can you tell me
to what extent the usage of the park reflects the social backgrounds
of the surrounding communities?
Mr Camley: There is a big difference
between the inner and outer parks. For example, there is a much
higher proportion of international visitors.
Q71 Mr Davidson: With respect, that
is not the question I am asking. To what extent does the usage
of the parks reflect the social background of the surrounding
areas? If you do not know, just tell me. That is better than extrapolating
a figure.
Mr Camley: I do not know the specific
answer.
Q72 Mr Davidson: What steps are you
taking to ensure that the social background of the surrounding
areas is reflected in the usage of the parks by making sure that
you appeal to the poorer sections of society? We have already
had this with many things from the Department of Culture: museums,
galleries and so on, but clearly the usage does not reflect the
background of those who are paying for the resources. What steps
are being taken to make sure that you broaden the usage?
Mr Camley: One of the things we
do is hold specific cultural events in the parks. This year, we
had a Caribbean showcase and Mela in Regents Park and so on. We
have also done specific postcard and letter drops and, by doing
so, we found that helped to increase the proportion of ethnic
minority users of some of our educational facilities.
Q73 Mr Davidson: I was specifically
asking about social classes, social backgrounds, rather than ethnic
minorities. If I distinguish the parks as venues from parks as
parks, it is my impression that the parks do not appeal right
across the whole range of social groupings. What are you doing
to address that? The report seems to indicate that other parks
elsewhere have done much better than yourselves.
Mr Camley: There was as part of
the Regents Park sports project a demographic survey and the work
was targeted at deprived areas surrounding the park.
Q74 Mr Davidson: How successful was
that?
Mr Camley: It has been successful
in that we have helped shape some of our other policies like for
school sports days, where we no longer charge.
Q75 Mr Davidson: In paragraph 2.7
it is mentioned that one of the agency's objectives was to encourage
greater access. I get the impression from this Report that this
is a somewhat new objective perhaps brought about during the period
you arrived. The fact that the strategies, in 2.8, are broadly
aspirational implies that you are not doing any of them at the
moment. Why are they not being followed through in the way that
they ought to have been in the past?
Mr Camley: I would not accept
that they are not being followed through. If you look at our educational
programme, for example, the number of people who have been involved
in that has risen from 7,000 in 2002-03 to about 24,000 last year.
Also, we have had something in the region of 3,500 volunteer hours
in the last year.
Q76 Mr Davidson: From which social
groupings are the volunteers drawn?
Mr Camley: From people who wish
to volunteer.
Q77 Mr Davidson: That is a do not
know. I understand that. To what extent do the volunteers reflect
the social backgrounds of the areas in which the parks sit?
Mr Camley: I do not know.
Q78 Mr Davidson: You have no targets
about trying to make sure that the volunteers do reflect the social
backgrounds in the areas in which the parks are?
Mr Camley: We do not have specific
targets.
Q79 Mr Davidson: Have you thought
about that in order that volunteers from particular social groups
might be able to encourage more usage of the parks by other social
groups?
Mr Camley: It is a point that
I will take away and look at.
2 Note by witness: Research collected by The Royal
Parks on users and non-users of the parks will be made available
on The Royal Parks website: www.royalparks.gov.uk Back
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