Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
DEPARTMENT FOR
EDUCATION AND
SKILLS, LEARNING
AND SKILLS
COUNCIL AND
UFI/LEARNDIRECT
21 NOVEMBER 2005
Q20 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: You seem
to be going down two routes here. We seem to have a focus on the
people who have very poor literacy and numeracy, but also we have
a focus on trying to do the skills for business. To me they are
two totally different paths. Which one did you expect learndirect
to do? Did you expect them to do both or was focusing on the business
a way of getting the funding for the literacy and numeracy?
Ms Pember: We expected them first
to make themselves into a credible business with a reputation
that people would want to take up opportunities and that they
were able to hold their own within the education world, which
they have done. At the same time we do want them, now they are
a mature business, to work with industry so that we can draw in
new income and full fees, which is part of the same story that
we are doing with the rest of the FE world. We are now focusing
our attention on making sure that their activities are helping
implement the national targets and drawing in new income.
Q21 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: But did you
not think that the sort of people who were going to access getting
the literacy and numeracy, the really initial building block,
were not the sort of people who were interested in whether it
was good business or not, but rather that it was the sort of business
that was going to encourage them to go and learn these things,
particularly with adults, where there is a huge stigma attached
to saying that you cannot read or write or fill in a form or add
up.
Ms Pember: You are right, but
they are not two priorities that cannot work hand in hand. For
some of the businesses that learndirect are already working with,
it is the literacy and numeracy diagnostic assessment and the
online literacy and support that those employers are interested
in and we think over time will begin to want to pay for.
Q22 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Can I turn
to you, Ms Jones? Again, coming back to the original set-up of
learndirect, the Department wanted you to do something that nobody
else was providing, so obviously it wanted you to be innovative.
How did you go about trying to get that? What research did you
do to find what would work and what would not, or has it been
trial and error as you have gone along?
Ms Jones: It has been partly both.
Part of innovation is to try some things, to take some risks and
then quickly analyse whether they are having success or not. There
was a lot of research done in terms of what was turning learners
off and that is why some of the bite-sized theory behind the size
and shape of the learning, the fact that it is quite private learning
for people who had previously been embarrassed in the traditional
classroom environment, appeals to them, and also the flexibility.
It is any time, it is any place and any pace, so it is very attractive
to shift workers, it is attractive to people who have care obligations
so they cannot regularly commit to turning up, let us say, at
six o'clock on a Wednesday evening for a night school type of
course. That approach was tested and found to be very successful.
Also, in terms of looking at businesses, some of the barriers
to SMEs investing in training (and about 59% of SMEs do not do
any training at all) are things like costs, time away from the
desk, travel expenditure, etc, that goes on around the learning,
so the fact that we can deliver learning to people in the workplace
is seen as an attractive thing. What we have clearly got to do
is go in there and exploit the success criteria that we have got.
Q23 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: In this innovation
you have been trying to do, if you could go back and do it again
is there anything you would differently, knowing what you know
now?
Ms Jones: That is an interesting
question. I think part of innovation is always trying things,
so there are some things that were tried that did not work but
I think the skill of this organisation has been to spot very quickly
those issues and move on. The area that we did not get right and
we moved away from is the SMEs and the large employer market,
and now is the time to move back to that and try and exploit it
successfully because clearly we have failed to do that so far.
Q24 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: If you are
going to get the large employers, the SME market in there, surely
the first thing you are going to have to do is find out what they
want. Were you perhaps trying to sell them a product they did
not want?
Ms Jones: Yes, we were part of
the portfolio was confused so there was a big overlap in mixture
between what was free and publicly funded and what they had to
pay for, so it was difficult to make the sale. Also, it was designed
more for the individual and the individual progressing and not
for the organisation and what the organisation needs, so we have
got to listen to organisations. I think it is very helpful with
the sector skills councils now because we have got a conduit there
so that we can really listen hard and build a product portfolio
around what the needs of business are.
Q25 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Are you intending
to restructure your organisation to do that?
Ms Jones: We already have restructured
it. The restructuring took place over August and September of
this year, so we have a focused business development activity
now which is targeting the business market.
Q26 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: This is a
question that I am struggling with. A lot of your stuff is online.
If we go to basic literacy and numeracy, if people are struggling
with that they are unlikely to be able to use a computer. How
do you deal with that?
Ms Jones: They wear headphones,
so even though the words are on the computer there is a voice-over.
Q27 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: On the innovation
bit can I come to Ms Pember and Mr Haysom? Presumably you want
learndirect to continue to be innovative. Innovation, as we have
heard from Ms Jones, means that if you are going to try things
out sometimes they go wrong. How are you going to help them to
continue to innovate?
Mr Haysom: You are absolutely
right. It is terribly difficult to maintain the right kind of
culture of innovation as an organisation matures 1-1 and it has
now reached that point of maturity. An awful lot of it comes down
to us being very clear about what we want learndirect to do and
having the right kind of relationship with Sarah and her team
to be able to allow that. The fact that we both come from the
private sector, Sarah and I, is probably helpful here and so we
can talk the same language about that. Yes, you are right. It
is very important to try and create the right kind of culture.
It is not just about money. In fact, money is usually the least
of it. I hope Sarah will agree. It is more about just having the
right kind of mindset within the organisation and being prepared
to take some of those risks that have got learndirect to where
it is today.
Ms Jones: We are still innovating.
We are not at the end of the innovation process and our innovations
are about improving our efficiency in the organisation. For example,
we have just in-sourced the IT and that will save us, ongoing,
a million pounds per annum as we go. We innovate in the
way that we offer our service so that we are better able to bridge
the gap on the rural need and what we can afford to do. There
are things such as we are innovating on how we provide learndirect
into prisons, which is a new area, where still internet access
is often prohibited, how we can get ourselves there. We are constantly
innovating. As Mr Haysom said, it does not take budget to do that.
It takes a skill set and a mindset about looking for the opportunities
and working together.
Ms Pember: That is where I think
one of the roles the Department can offer is making sure that
when new things come up we are the voice and champion of learndirect
and that we are able to say, as we do with offender learning,
that that is a solution that is already there, that they can pilot
and work with offenders, but also to make available the capacity
so that their core funding is not at risk. When we have got something
new, like something that we called My Guide, which is a
new tool to help people who have learning difficulties and disabilities
to access the net. That was a new pilot project and what we have
done is funded learndirect separately to take that on because
it is a new project with new risks attached to it. It is the same
for having advice and guidance in every town in the country and
in the skill strategy we have marked that up as a new venture.
Again we have funded learndirect separately for that because there
is a risk attached to it and we need them to carry on with their
core business on the one hand, but on the other hand we need them
to do this innovative work maybe in a different way.
Q28 Kitty Ussher: Ms Jones, what
is your PSA target?
Ms Jones: Skills for Life and
this year we are contributing on contract 29,000 Skills for Life
first test passes but we actually think we are going to exceed
that, more to the tune of about 40,000 Skills for Life first test
passes in this academic year.
Q29 Kitty Ussher: And that is your
main overall target. Skills for Life is basic literacy and numeracy,
is it?
Ms Jones: Yes.
Q30 Kitty Ussher: Ms Pember, are
there any other PSA targets that the University for Industry is
involved in?
Ms Pember: Not at this moment
because, as I said, over the last few years we have changed the
priority. It was getting people in in the first round and then
Skills for Life, so that they worked more towards a qualification.
And now, as we put more focus on Level 2, we will be looking to
learndirect to raise their profile in that area of work, but it
was not their first priority. The first priority was getting people
in. We have to balance getting people in who have never done any
learning before against the need to get people moved on quite
quickly to get a Level 2 qualification.
Q31 Kitty Ussher: Correct me if I
am wrong. I do not know if this is an interest I should declare,
Chairman, but I was privileged to be working for the Labour Party
in the run-up to 1997 and I remember where this idea came from,
the University for Industry, and it was very much about skills
in the workplace; it was very much about raising Britain's productivity
levels. I have to admit I have not been involved in the policy
since then but I come here and ask you what your PSA targets are
and it is worthy but entirely different. I do not know whether
the Department can comment on what has happened in these few years.
Ms Pember: As Sarah has already
explained, the emphasis was put on the person, not the employer,
but the majority of people who take up learndirect activity are
in some form of employment. If you went, say, to Bluewater, the
shopping centre, there is a learndirect centre there which is
really well used by the workers at Bluewater, but if you went
to one of the shops there they might not know their own employees
were doing that activity. It is still work focused and many centres
are in employers' premises or on trading estates within a geographical
area but it is focused on the individual being motivated to go
in and do something that was about their learning. I still say
it is first round stuff. It helps their work chances but it is
individual-led, not employer-led.
Q32 Kitty Ussher: In terms of your
Department more broadly, you obviously set PSA targets to do with
productivity, broadly defined here as a macro-economic concept.
Ms Pember: Yes, which are the
participation in HE , the Basic Skills one and the Level 2 at
19.
Q33 Kitty Ussher: Which is the same
as yours, Mr Haysom, presumably. As your Department is negotiating
for the next spending round, which obviously is linked to the
next round of PSA targets, Ms Pember, what contribution would
you say learndirect should be able to contribute?
Ms Pember: We have to agree new
policies but I think learndirect has already started re-aligning
its business towards the Level 2 activity and I think that will
be something we will be looking to them for. The other thing is
that this is an online organisation and running along with the
innovation of learndirect we have had to have QCA matching that
with online testing. At the moment we really only have online
testing in literacy and numeracy, so there is some more work to
be done to make sure the assessment methods that we use are as
innovative as the way we are training these people.
Q34 Kitty Ussher: Would you agree
that the potential is enormous? Of the top of my head we have
got about 27 million people in work and you are touching half
a million people a year, which is 2% or so, so over five or six
years you could have an enormous effect on the overall prosperity
of our country if we get this right. Will you be able to quantify
that? Will you be able to have targets that affect Britain's GDP?
Ms Pember: That is exactly the
type of work we want to do with learndirect and the Learning and
Skills Council leading up to the Spending Review 2007.
Q35 Kitty Ussher: Will those targets
be publicly available?
Ms Pember: On the type of information.
The Government has to decide at the time what the targets will
be.
Mr Haysom: It is worth noting
that this is recent focus on Skills for Life and Level 2. It is
only from last year effectively so it is a very recent change
and the fact that Ufi I can help to deliver so well the Skills
for Life agenda is a very positive sign and we will be looking
to build on that.
Q36 Kitty Ussher: For sure; I do
not dispute that in any way. I am just thinking of the potential
to make our country richer as a result of the work you are doing.
I look forward to hearing more about that. Could you describe
for me what an employer should do if they identify a skills gap
in their workforce and they think you might be able to fill that
gap?
Ms Jones: We reach out to employers
and try and engage them. Also, if they identify a need themselves
then hopefully through the brand awareness which we will be addressing
and improving they will know to come to us and they can either
go to a learning centre or we are developing relationships with
other key partners and brokers so that they can signpost them
on. For example, a lot of small businesses have their trusted
adviser, whether it is their accountant or the Small Business
Service or whatever, so it is very important that those people
know what learndirect has in its toolbag and how it can be of
help to a business going forward. That is one of the key areas
that we have failed to address in the past and we need to improve
on.
Q37 Kitty Ussher: How customised
can you be?
Ms Jones: With the SME market
it is a matter of breaking it down into the more standardised
chunks that we know a business wants, so a lot of that is around
compliance training for legislation. For large employers we have
done some bespoke work. Barclays is the case in the Report where
we focused on what their specific training need was for their
employees and we have developed a product portfolio around that
but, obviously, that involves investment and the large employer
needs to be prepared to pay for the investment because that is
not something that we would use public funds for. It is the reason
why we have got two separate organisations, limited companies,
within the business, so that any investment which is private sector
is ring-fenced and dealt with and kept well away from any public
monies.
Q38 Kitty Ussher: But surely each
company has very specific training needs. Will you be able to
operate a bespoke product? Are you going to find out where the
gaps are for that product?
Ms Jones: In which market? In
the SMEs or large companies?
Q39 Kitty Ussher: SMEs particularly
but either. How flexible can you be?
Ms Jones: We are always looking
for the right products to fit business need but are we going to
design a product for a very small business on a particular high
street? No. We are going to look for generic products which have
got several purchasers across the SME market. The SME market itself
is fairly fragmented so we can target things and be specific.
Our market research needs to look at that and find where the demand
is and invest in those products where we can fill gaps. Working
through the sector skills councils could be useful in those areas
because they are the ones who know what is needed in their sector.
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