Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
DEPARTMENT OF
THE ENVIRONMENT
FOR NORTHERN
IRELAND
30 NOVEMBER 2005
Q20 Greg Clark: So you expect now
to meet that target by 2010?
Mr Peover: Yes.
Mr Aston: Yes; we expect to meet
that target by 2010 and we also expect to meet the 25% recycling
target on the way.
Q21 Greg Clark: In respect of that
municipal waste target, where are you now?
Mr Aston: At 18.9%.
Q22 Greg Clark: Why does it say in
the Report, page 21 figure 6, in the bottom section of that table,
that it is too early to assess progress on those targets? Perhaps
that is something for the Comptroller and Auditor General. Why
does that record that it is too early to assess progress whereas
apparently the progress is well known?
Mr Dowdall: That was the consultant's
assessment at the time. If you see the heading at the top of the
column, when we produced this Report we were conveying the Department's
own consultants' findings in the Report.
Q23 Greg Clark: When was this assessment
made?
Mr Peover: I am not quite sure.
Do you know when the consultants Reported?
Mr Aston: I believe the consultants
Reported just prior to the completion of the audit Report and
since then the Northern Ireland Landfill Allowance Scheme targets
have been put in place, as has the Reporting scheme called Waste
Dataflow. So we have much more information coming in since the
date of the Report.
Q24 Greg Clark: Are you serious that
you thought it was too early to assess progress just before this
Report was produced, whereas now you seem not only to have the
information but to be very confident that you are going to hit
the targets?
Mr Peover: They are 2010 targets.
The Report makes clear that there are issues about data collection.
Stephen has just mentioned that we are part of Waste Dataflow
which gives us quarterly returns from councils. A lot of infrastructures
has to be put in place over that timescale. We are still hopeful
that we shall meet those targets.
Q25 Greg Clark: If you do not meet
the targets—Northern Ireland does things differently as
we have discovered, the transposition takes longer—if you
were to fail to meet the targets, is it possible that the UK could
fail to meet its targets as a result of the slow progress in Northern
Ireland?
Mr Peover: I suppose it is possible,
yes, but unlikely, as we are a very small element of the UK waste
stream.
Q26 Greg Clark: The slow transposition
is one of the things that triggers fines.
Mr Peover: Yes, the slow transposition
is an issue for the UK because we are a constituent part of the
UK. We have resolved that problem. There is now no real issue
of transposition delay at all. We are up to date with transposition,
we are fully engaged with the European Commission and with colleagues
in Defra and we are working very closely with them. I do not see
transposition as being a problem for us.
Q27 Greg Clark: In the event of failure
to meet either transposition targets or indeed the actual diversion
targets, if there were infraction proceedings, would any fine
be for the United Kingdom or for Northern Ireland? Who would pay
that?
Mr Peover: I suppose the fine
would be against the United Kingdom, but I assume the Treasury
might wish to levy the fine on Northern Ireland.
Q28 Greg Clark: Perhaps the Treasury
might like to comment on that.
Mr Thomson: When devolution came
into place in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, there was
a statement of funding principles. The statement of funding principles
includes treatment of any EU fine and effectively the devolved
administrations would have to pick up the tab.
Q29 Greg Clark: The whole of the
element that relates to them?
Mr Peover: The element for which
they are responsible. Northern Ireland would pick it up.
Q30 Greg Clark: How do they then
pass it on? Suppose there is a fine to the UK attributable to
Northern Ireland's performance, who in Northern Ireland picks
up the tab?
Mr Thomson: I have not worked
this out because it is hypothetical, but, if I may think it through,
I suspect the Treasury would reduce the Northern Ireland budget;
the Northern Ireland budget would be reduced by an amount and
then ministers, in allocating that Northern Ireland budget, would
have to decide how to cope with the shortfall.
Q31 Greg Clark: Would it be passed
onto district councils for example?
Mr Thomson: I am hesitating because
ministers could decide as part of that process to pay district
councils less money. That would be within the gift of ministers.
Q32 Greg Clark: But it has not been
decided that they would do that. Is that not rather extraordinary?
The whole point of this non-compliance regime is to provide incentives,
punishments and rewards to encourage people to act in a certain
way and yet it seems neither the Treasury nor the officials in
Northern Ireland have actually determined in advance how these
fines are to be allocated. What possible incentive is that for
district councils to improve their behaviour?
Mr Peover: There is an incentive
for district councils through the Landfill Allowance Scheme.
Q33 Greg Clark: But not to comply
with the EU targets.
Mr Aston: I referred to the Northern
Ireland Landfill Allowance Scheme which is modelled on the scheme
in GB and it does provide for a penalty currently of up to £200
per tonne for a failure to comply with diversion. So in answer
to your questions about the transfer of costs, I believe it is
highly probable that it would be transferred to councils that
fail to comply.
Q34 Greg Clark: Highly probable.
So if I were to talk to the chief executive of one of the councils
in Northern Ireland, they would have a clear view as to what the
financial consequences for their council tax payers were for a
failure to meet these targets.
Mr Aston: That has been made crystal
clear to them.
Q35 Greg Clark: What would it be
for a typical council then if they failed to meet their target?
Mr Peover: The £200 per tonne
figure depends on the tonnage by which they fail to reach their
targets.
Q36 Greg Clark: That entirely passes
on the fine which could have been imposed on the UK. It goes to
Northern Ireland and it is predictable in that way.
Mr Peover: Yes, there are two
different types of fines here. Maybe I am confusing you. On the
transposition fine, if Northern Ireland fails to transpose legislation
on time—
Q37 Greg Clark: I am thinking more
of the achievement of the diversion targets.
Mr Aston: Just to be clear, in
Northern Ireland there are 26 councils and for waste management
they are grouped into the three groups which the Report identifies.
For example, the southern management group, unusually referred
to as SWMP, Southern Waste Management Partnership, would face
a fine approaching £9 million if they failed.
Q38 Greg Clark: Do you think that
regime of incentives is clear and is enough to incentivise the
appropriate behaviour?
Mr Aston: My use of the word "crystal"
was chosen.
Q39 Greg Clark: Does the Treasury
concur with that?
Mr Thomson: Yes. When I was responding
to you, I was responding more on the transposition which would
be a general fine against the UK; I was not picking up the council
issue which Mr Aston has dealt with.
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