Examination of Witness (Questions 100-119)
HOME OFFICE,
PRISON SERVICE
AND NATIONAL
OFFENDER MANAGEMENT
SERVICE
19 DECEMBER 2005
Q100 Jon Trickett: Would that make
a contribution, do you think, towards reducing the numbers?
Sir John Gieve: Someone has just
passed me an estimate which says that it would be 1,200 fewer
people in prison, but we will send you a note on how we come to
that figure.
Q101 Greg Clark: If people are sentenced
to a spell in prison there is a sense in which that is a very
precious time to use to their advantage, to rehabilitate them
so that they can take something from the experience other than
just punishment. One of the things I found rather depressing about
this Report was the consequences of overcrowding for education.
The Howard League have given us a memorandum which suggested that
the Prison Service used to have a target of 24 hours a week purposeful
activity across the Prison Service but that has been abolished.
Is that the case?
Mr Wheatley: Yes, that is the
case, mainly because what that prioritised, if we were not careful,
was just getting people into bulk activity rather than getting
people into activity like education. The easiest way to occupy
people and hit that target was simply to put people in workshops
doing relatively mindless activity, because lots of workshops
have to have semi-skilled work in them, rather than to prioritise
education and the offending behaviour courses which usually look
after a smaller number of people rather more expensively but have
a much greater effect on rehabilitation.
Q102 Greg Clark: Has that been replaced
by a comparable target for education?
Mr Wheatley: It has been replaced
by the education targets to make sure that prisoners get basic
skills awards, and we are faced within the public sector, quite
correctly, with increased targets each year so that makes us prioritise
our efforts to get people into what we think is purposeful activity.
Q103 Greg Clark: Is there a replacement
for the number of hours a week?
Mr Wheatley: No. We maintain the
target, although it is not a key target for the agency. We keep
an eye on the target. I can get you details of our current performance.
In fact, the amount of hours we have in purposeful activity has
gone up slightly this year.
Q104 Greg Clark: But you are still
monitoring it, even though it has gone up?
Mr Wheatley: Yes, we are still
monitoring it because it is important for us. Our key targets
prioritise us to get people into education, to get people onto
offending behaviour courses and to get people into drug treatment
and detox, which are more important than simply getting people
into workshops.
Q105 Greg Clark: Since you have the
figures, and you say they have gone up a bit, what percentage
now of prisoners have 24 hours a week purposeful activity?
Mr Wheatley: Again, I will write
to you carefully with accurate accounts of that.[6]
It is slightly up on what it was last year. I do not want to overstate
the case. We will write separately with the details of that.
Q106 Greg Clark: What percentage of prisoners
take educational courses in prison?
Mr Wheatley: At the moment I cannot
give you an accurate account of that.
Q107 Greg Clark: Roughly. Is it half
of them, 80%?
Mr Wheatley: I hesitate to give
you an assessment.
Q108 Greg Clark: It is a very crucial
area. You must have a feel for it. Is it most prisoners who take
educational courses or not?
Mr Wheatley: During the course
of imprisonment most prisoners will have done some educational
course.
Q109 Greg Clark: At any one time
what is the proportion?
Mr Wheatley: It will vary from
prison to prison because the educational provision in prisons
still varies. We have still got to try and even out the education
input. We are aiming for 50%.
Q110 Greg Clark: 50% of what?
Mr Wheatley: 50% is what the Learning
and Skills Council is aiming for and the estimate at the moment
we think is about 30% who have some sort of involvement.
Q111 Greg Clark: So 30% of prisoners
at any one time or 30% of prisoners during the course of their
career in prison?
Mr Wheatley: During the course
of their career in prison is my view on that, not at any one time.
Q112 Greg Clark: 30% during their
whole career in prison have any educational input?
Mr Wheatley: During their sentence,
not their whole career, because many of them will come in and
out several times over. One cannot keep on educating people in
things that they have already done. If somebody has done their
basic skills on their last sentence we cannot repeat the process.
Q113 Greg Clark: You could have a
course on intermediate skills, I would have thought.
Mr Wheatley: Yes, but there is
probably a limit to the education one should reasonably do with
prisoners.
Q114 Greg Clark: I am sorry; I do
not understand that. I do not think there is a limit to the education
one has reasonably done. If somebody has done a basic skills course
I do not really regard it as acceptable and desirable that the
box should be ticked and they have done their education. They
should be doing higher skills training.
Mr Wheatley: We are trying to
prioritise.
Q115 Greg Clark: Just on that point,
are you saying that if someone has done their basic skills then
they have had the education that you can offer?
Mr Wheatley: We try and prioritise
the sorts of skills that will get people into employment. If somebody
comes back we do not automatically follow people through to Open
University level, although some people do do Open University while
they are in prison. We are trying to prioritise our resources
towards what we think will make people employable and that is
a quite deliberate policy.
Sir John Gieve: Can I make one
other point, which is that quite a high proportion of people going
into prison stay there a very short time in any year. Obviously,
at any one time most of the population is made up of long stay
prisoners and it is much easier to organise education for them.
Q116 Greg Clark: Can we come back
to that point, Chairman? Just on this point about your resources
being constrained and you having to prioritise your resources,
can you give me an indication of how you have to ration this?
What is the budget that you have and what ought it to be so that
you would not have to make these rationing decisions on education?
Mr Wheatley: I suspect there will
always be a choice to make unless we provide education for every
prisoner with no limit.
Q117 Greg Clark: That is not acceptable.
Mr Wheatley: At the moment we
are spending about £110 million on education and Peter has
the figures.
Mr Brook: There has been an increase
in funding from £57 million in 2001-02 to £151 million
in £2005-06.
Q118 Greg Clark: Is that a level,
Sir John, that you feel has hit the right level to go forward
or do you think it should increase more?
Sir John Gieve: No, I would like
to see it increased more. We are also looking at education for
people on probation, which has been a relatively neglected area
and which we are also trying to expand, but I would like to see
it expanded on both fronts.
Q119 Greg Clark: Mr Wheatley, what
should it be? I am surprised at your lack of ambition in this.
It strikes me that every prisoner ought to be having the level
of education that they could benefit from. Is that a long way
from the aspiration of the Prison Service at the moment?
Mr Wheatley: The aspiration of
the Prison Service is to take the money we have got for education
and spend it to the maximum.
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