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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 1328-i House of COMMONS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS Wednesday 21 June 2006
collections management in the National Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland
DEPARTMENT OF CULTURE, ARTS AND LEISURE MR PAUL SWEENEY
NATIONAL MUSEUMS AND GALLERIES NORTHERN IRELAND (MAGNI) MR TIM COOKE and MR MARSHALL McKEE
Evidence heard in Public Questions 1 - 99
USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT
Oral evidence Taken before the Committee of Public Accounts on Wednesday 21 June 2006 Members present: Mr Edward Leigh, in the Chair Mr Richard Bacon Mr Ian Davidson Mr Austin Mitchell Kitty Ussher ________________ Mr John Dowdall CB, Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Audit Office, gave evidence. Mr David Thomson, NI Treasury Officer of Accounts, HM Treasury, gave evidence. REPORT BY THE COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL FOR NORTHERN IRELAND COLLECTIONS MANAGEMENT IN THE NATIONAL MUSEUMS AND GALLERIES OF NORTHERN IRELAND (HC 1130) Examination of Witnesses
Witnesses: Mr Paul Sweeney, Permanent Secretary, Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure; and Mr Tim Cooke, Chief Executive, and Mr Marshall McKee, Director of Operations, National Museums and Galleries (MAGNI), gave evidence. Q1 Chairman: Good afternoon and welcome to our second session on Northern Ireland reports where today we are considering the findings from the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland's Report on Collections Management in the National Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland. Mr Sweeney, I think you have only recently taken up your post so congratulations, and perhaps you would introduce your colleagues. Mr Sweeney: Thank you, Chairman. On my right-hand side is Mr Tim Cooke, Chief Executive of Museums and Galleries Northern Ireland. He has been in post since September 2003 and he is spearheading the modernisation and reform programme within MAGNI. On my left Mr Marshall McKee. Marshall McKee is the Director of Operations at MAGNI and his responsibilities include the estate management and the delivery of services. He has been in the museums sector for 28 years. Q2 Chairman: Okay, can we perhaps look at the number of artefacts you have. This is dealt with on page 23. Do you know how many artefacts you have? Mr Sweeney: The Report puts the figure at 1.45 million. In terms of actually documenting what we have and where we have it, I am advised with authority we can state that we have documentation at that basic inventory level for 94% of that 1.45 million number of objects. There are 6% which are at this moment in time not documented but stored in a secure environment. Q3 Chairman: If we look at the Folk and Transport Museum, it has got 568,739 records based on an estimate produced in 1997. Why are you using 1997 estimates? Mr Sweeney: I am advised that those estimates were quite detailed. For example, a big section of that collection is photographic negatives so you might have a box with 100 negatives in the box so some estimation might be made around the number of boxes that might hold say, for example, 100 negatives, so that is where the term "estimation" comes in here. Q4 Chairman: It is a bit like weighing boats, is it, but you weigh boxes? Can we look at paragraph 2.27. It is obviously important to improve the quality of information held and access to it by the public and I am sure you agree that is important, do you not? What action are you taking to ensure that your records are computerised and will be available more widely to the public and have you got a timetable? Mr Sweeney: It is true to say that in terms of the computerisation of records, some progress has been made on a number of sites, particularly at the Ulster Museum where today I am advised that 98% of the objects have been --- Q5 Chairman: You keep saying you are advised. Do you know or has someone told you? Mr Sweeney: I have been advised by MAGNI. Q6 Chairman: Okay, so it may or may not be right? Mr Sweeney: Well, we will come on to the issue of verifying MAGNI's figures, but I have been, as you might imagine Chairman, spending some considerable time over the last several weeks trying to get levels of assurance around the figure work that MAGNI have been providing to me. Q7 Chairman: Given they do not know what they have got how much credence can we place on this advice? Mr Sweeney: In terms of their computerisation they have advised me with authority that in the Ulster Museum 98% of the objects are computerised. That is less the case in some other sites. Q8 Chairman: Okay, if we look at paragraph 3.6 we see that 60% of your storage area is considered either "poor" or "unacceptable." What have you done to address this? Mr Sweeney: In the past, some attempts have been made to address the nature of the storage facilities but more recently the Department has done the following: in 2004 there was a survey of the entire MAGNI estate, which includes amongst others 50 stores, and the Department made available approximately £677,000 at that time. Subsequently we have made £13.5 million available. £7 million of that will be for the adaptation of the Ulster Museum but within that is there a figure of £2.5 million which could be used towards improving some of the buildings that need immediate attention. I am advised some of that will include improving some of the storage areas. Q9 Chairman: You told the Audit Office in February 2006 that around 90% is held under appropriate conditions. How can you say this with any confidence, Mr Sweeney, when you do not know absolutely how many artefacts you have and apparently all the records are not computerised? Can we be sure that this reassurance given in 2006 was actually correct? Mr Sweeney: This is a qualitative study carried out by MAGNI, as you say, in February 2006 where they compared the footage area in the stores with the nature, the volume and vulnerability of the objects held. By taking those two classifications they reached a figure of 90% of the collection being stored in suitable conditions. Again, Chairman, in terms of preparation for today's hearing, I took it upon myself to look at three-quarters of the storage space in both the Ulster Museum and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, along with the senior management team at MAGNI, looking at the methodology they adopted, I am very much aware I am a lay person in terms of my degree of expertise in artefacts, so I sought to walk the stores and to give myself at least degrees of assurance around the robustness of this figure of 90%. Chairman, I also took some comfort from the fact that the Northern Ireland Audit Office itself concluded that the bulk of the collection was being held in good or excellent conditions. Chairman: Lastly, I want to look at this incredible case study on page 34. This is a schooner that you have had for 36 years, Mr Sweeney, not knowing what to do with it. This is the tale of the incredible hulk. I know that people would accuse me of being a hulk here in this building without much use for 23 years, and Mr Mitchell even longer --- Mr Mitchell: Thank you! Q10 Chairman: But what are you going to do with this hulk, Mr Sweeney. This could make a programme in Yes, Minister, could it not, a government museum having a huge object like this which it does not know what to do with for 36 years. Mr Sweeney: I think, Chairman, how I would respond to that is that over the last 36 years --- in Northern Ireland there has been a whole range of options explored in terms of the future of this vessel. Q11 Chairman: Well, that follows. It was a long debate obviously! Mr Sweeney: I have to say that in terms of the subjectivity with which a person can bring to these matters that the National Historic Ships Committee take the view that this is of pre-eminent significance and have classified this particular vessel as one of 46 compiling the UK's core collection of historic vessels, so our custodianship of this ship is such that we have it on public exhibition at the moment. We have arrested the deterioration in the hull --- Q12 Chairman: You really think that is going to draw the crowds, do you, looking at the photograph? That is the result of 36 years' work, is it? Mr Sweeney: Chairman, I can only speak from anecdotal evidence. I have brought my four children to this site on a number of occasions and it is quite awesome to behold. Chairman: Alright, we do not want to be rude about your hulk. Mr Bacon? Q13 Mr Bacon: What is most awesome, its size or the 36 years that your Department and its predecessors have been pondering it? Mr Sweeney: There is an interpretation plaque alongside the vessel where one can read the history of it. Q14 Mr Bacon: It does not tell us a lot about the history in the document except that it is a matter of historic importance, a vessel of considerable importance illustrating an important phase of British merchant shipping history." When you say one of 46, one of 46 what, that are in Northern Ireland, that are extant on the planet, of which this is the only one in the British Isles? What is special about this one out of the 46? Mr Sweeney: Apparently in terms of the complement of 46 it would include, amongst others, HMS Belfast, HMS Caroline --- Q15 Mr Bacon: HMS Belfast here on the River Thames? Mr Sweeney: Yes. SS Great Britain and the Cutty Sark. Q16 Mr Bacon: And most of those are floating. Does this one float? Mr Sweeney: I cannot say with authority the number of the 46 vessels which are floating. Q17 Mr Bacon: I am talking about this one. Does this one float? Mr Sweeney: No. Q18 Mr Bacon: Why not? Has it got a hole in it? Mr Sweeney: Actually it does not float but I am told that there are a range of options which could include, but again --- Q19 Mr Bacon: You could set it on fire. Andrew Lloyd Webber said about the Millennium Dome that every Victorian impresario knew that there is nothing the crowds like as much as a blaze. You could set it on fire and charge disaster movie directors to come and watch and film it and you would make revenue for Northern Ireland for many years to come. Mr Sweeney: From my point of view there are a range of options that have been explored in the past. Frankly, the business case never stacked up. Q20 Mr Bacon: The business case for what? Mr Sweeney: For example, when the vessel was brought to Northern Ireland away back in 1970 the original intention was to reinstate its three masts and top sail. Q21 Mr Bacon: And make it float? Mr Sweeney: No, to create a mock dock at Cultra. Q22 Mr Bacon: A mock dock? Mr Sweeney: At Cultra. Q23 Mr Bacon: Was the fact it is at Cultra that is the important bit or the fact it is a mock dock. Mr Sweeney: Just coincidental. Q24 Mr Bacon: And that was proven to be too expensive? Mr Sweeney: Presumably. Q25 Mr Bacon: This is a period which, funnily enough, coincides more or less exactly with the 30 Years War and the Second World War combined together. You could do quite a lot in that time, 36 years. What is your explanation for the fact nothing was done and this thing was not just seized by the scruff of the neck and somebody made a decision of some kind about it? Mr Sweeney: Over the last 36 years, if I was trying to look at this from a positive point of view, the work that was spent in terms of acquiring the vessel and the work that was spent on refurbishing the hull of the vessel has ensured that its long-term preservation remains as an option. Q26 Mr Bacon: That is absolutely marvellous. I am sure the people of Northern Ireland will be ecstatic at that news. Can I move on to paragraph 2.10 in the Report. Can you tell us what is the purpose of the audit check that is referred to there in paragraph 2.10? Mr Sweeney: The purpose of the audit check would be to spot-check a number of objects in the custodianship of MAGNI to satisfy oneself in terms of the inventory being intact. Q27 Mr Bacon: It says at the bottom of the paragraph there: "No further 'audit checks' have been carried out since 2003 due to a lack of resources, despite museum policy stating that such audits should be carried out annually." Did the trustees of the museum know the museum's own policy was not being complied with? Mr Sweeney: Yes, in 2004 an audit was not carried out. Q28 Mr Bacon: And the museum trustees knew that the museums policy was not being complied with. That is my question. Did the trustees know? Mr Sweeney: I cannot answer that question specifically. If you wish I could refer it to the Chief Executive. Q29 Mr Bacon: If somebody in the room could tell me, yes. Mr Cooke: I do not believe the trustees knew. Q30 Mr Bacon: The trustees did not know? Mr Cooke: No, they did not and I think here the Report identifies a deficiency in our system. Q31 Mr Bacon: An inefficiency? Mr Cooke: A deficiency in our system. I think what we should have had in place and what we will have in place is a system whereby if an audit check is not carried out it is automatically escalated to our audit committee. That would be the procedure in the future. Q32 Mr Bacon: You were content with the fact that the audit checks were not carried out and the trustees who were responsible and the guardians of this did not know? Mr Cooke: I was not content with that. In fact, I only knew it had not been carried out, Mr Bacon, when the Audit Office drew it to my attention. I think that exposes, as I say, a deficiency in the process. These checks should be carried out annually. They are an important part of museums policy and its verification procedure and we are putting in place a fail-safe system so that we would be in a situation where these things are automatically reported on an annual basis to the audit committee of the board of trustees and they are reported in our annual report as recommended by the Audit Office. Q33 Mr Bacon: And that would be the case if at any of the other sites audit checks were not carried out? Mr Cooke: That would be the case. We have recently appointed a new Director of Collections and Interpretation to bring greater co-ordination to the whole of our collections management. One of his key responsibilities will be to assure me as Chief Executive that these audit checks are carried out. They will be reported in our annual report and I will be translating assurance in relation to documentation and audit checks into my internal control statement. Q34 Mr Bacon: How often are audit checks performed at the other collections at the various different sites? Mr Cooke: There again you identify a problem that --- Q35 Mr Bacon: You do not know? Mr Cooke: Yes, I do know. There has been an issue here and there is not a policy in place on the other sites. That is one of the issues that I have asked Dr McGravy (?), our new Director of Collections and Interpretation, to address as a matter of urgency. Q36 Mr Bacon: Could you send the Committee a list of all the sites with the details of the last time that there was an audit, including the date of that audit and the findings of the audit for each of the different sites? Can you do that? Mr Cooke: Yes I can. Q37 Mr Bacon: Thank you. Can I ask you to turn to paragraph 2.19. It says there that not only was there a report by the NIAO in 1989 saying that the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum had committed to a three-year evaluation and the report recommended that the evaluation would lead to the introduction of a computerised documentation system, but that there was a further report some nine years later in 1998 expressing concern at the lack of progress in the development of a computerised collections management system for the museum. Do you take any notice of these NIAO reports? It is quite obvious there has been this recommendation around for a very long time. Why over a period of 17 years has nothing happened? Mr Sweeney: Mr Bacon, you are quite right, whereas earlier on I drew attention to the fact that the Ulster Museum computerisation programme had been impressive, this Report takes the view that the computerisation programme for the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum at less than 10% today is untenable. I have had a look into the reasons why that has been the case and I could offer the following context and explanation, if it would be helpful. It is true to say that when I looked at what happened from 1989 onwards in terms of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, immediately Coopers & Lybrand were commissioned to look into putting together a computerised documentation feasibility study --- Q38 Mr Bacon: Just a feasibility study? Mr Sweeney: That feasibility study was worked up to a business plan stage. Q39 Mr Bacon: By Coopers & Lybrand as well? Mr Sweeney: By Coopers & Lybrand. Q40 Mr Bacon: What were the total fees paid to Coopers & Lybrand? Mr Sweeney: I cannot answer that question at this moment in time. Q41 Mr Bacon: Is there anyone in this room who can? Can you write to the Committee with that information? Mr Sweeney: That work that Coopers & Lybrand did in 1992 came to a head whereby the Department of Education at that time took the view that no resources could be put in place to take forward the computerisation programme and resources could not be anticipated for the foreseeable future. During the 1990s and right up to 1999, whereby at that stage a £6 million package was worked up into a business plan, it was concluded at that stage that that package of £6 million was "unaffordable". What has happened since 1999 is that MAGNI has involved itself in what I would describe as a self-help approach to the computerisation programme and therefore the good work that has been done at the Ulster Museum and the hardware and software that has been put in place there at a cost of about £0.5 million will now be cascaded down through the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, and I think the Report was very balanced in acknowledging that progress had been made there and there is the potential now to put what I call this self-help model of computerisation into place. Q42 Mr Bacon: Can I stop you because it is a rather long answer and I have got one more question I would like to ask apart from this present one. First, could you write to the Committee with an explanation of all the costs involved in the feasibility studies and the building up of options for the £6 million package which was unaffordable et cetera, including the cost of any external advice, not just from Coopers & Lybrand but from any others, from the original NIAO report in 1989 until the present date? Mr Sweeney: Specifically around computerisation at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum? Q43 Mr Bacon: Yes. Mr Sweeney: I would be happy to do that. Q44 Mr Bacon: One other question, you mentioned the 1.45 million artefacts and 94% were documented and therefore presumably 6% were not, which is around 87,000 items. Did I understand you to say that the 6% as opposed to the 94% were mostly photographic negatives or was that just a small proportion of the collection that was not classified? Mr Sweeney: I used that, Mr Bacon, as an example in terms of the 1997 reference to an "estimate" of the collection. I was trying to give an example there of where a scientific estimation can be made. Q45 Mr Bacon: What I am really trying to get to is what do you know roughly about what the 87,000 artefacts that you have not got fully classified are? You must have some notion. Anecdotally it is said of any EU official or Defra official or Northern Ireland agriculture official they go into a field with a clip board and say, "It looks like 100 cows to me." You must have some notion of how many of these things are pottery, how many of these things are photographs, how many of these things are rare precious metals, or whatever it is, and roughly of what does it all comprise? Mr Sweeney: I can invite Mr McKee to give you some detailed response to that, if I may. Mr McKee: You are right, Mr Bacon, the Report itself does recognise that part of the undocumented collection is archeological material, pre-history material from an excavation. That forms part of the undocumented collection. There are also other undocumented elements at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, some charts, some maps and some artefacts relating to 19th century/early 20th century history. So, all in all, we reckon from our records about 6% of the collections are undocumented. 94% of the collections, which Mr Sweeney referred to, are documented to a level where we know what we have and where it is. I would stress that that does not mean that they are documented to SPECTRUM standards. We could maybe tease that out a little later on but in terms of a record of what the object is and where that object sits within our organisation, within our stores then we do have that information. Mr Bacon: Thank you. Chairman: Mr Mitchell? Q46 Mr Mitchell: I just want to start, as we do in political processes, with The Result because Mr Bacon has been very scathing but we got ourselves into a similar mess in Grimsby with something called the Ross Tiger(?) which was an early construct of a Grimsby fishing vessel which was fetched back from the Faroe Islands with great trumpeting and celebrations and everybody said, "We must preserve this vessel because it is archetypal and no history of fishing is complete without it." It has come back and since then it has lain mouldering in the Alexandra Dock sinking slowly. The council has been desperate for some time to get rid of it but nobody will take it. I think here we have a common problem in the sense that enthusiasts say, "We must have this" and then it is very difficult because it is an expensive, big object to maintain it. Having said that, how much of the problem at the Folk Museum, which seems to be the most difficult area, is due to the drain in money caused by The Result? Mr Sweeney: Well, I think to answer that question The Result will always be a candidate for public ridicule because there is --- Q47 Mr Mitchell: Yes, that is true. Mr Sweeney: Because as you refer there is a degree of subjectivity but it abuts the following. Q48 Mr Mitchell: It could be a candidate for public respect. Mr Sweeney: Exactly, depending on whom one speaks to but to fully understand the trustees' dilemma on these matters. The Result itself abuts two award-winning museums. In the 1990s when confronted with the dilemma as to where to put priorities, a rail gallery and a road gallery were created at Contra at a cost respectively of £2.1 and £2.2 million. These galleries have won awards. The number of visitors increased by a factor of 46% within a number of years, I think within two to three years. So to fully understand the custodianship of the trustees and the dilemma that museums and trusts across the UK are confronted with, there is that conundrum about getting the balance right. They secured the integrity of The Result and at least there are options for the future. Ironically, the Titanic in Belfast has now been seen to be one of the iconic regeneration projects for the future of Belfast and who is to say that a vessel such as The Result might not find its place in something like that in the future? At least the option theoretically exists. Q49 Mr Mitchell: If it is allowed to degenerate it should become like the Titanic. The question was is it a big drain on the finances of the Folk Museum? Mr Sweeney: At this moment in time beyond the fact that it was bought in 2004 at a cost of almost £10,000. In terms of the space it is occupying, that is about 400 square metres, I understand, so to really ascertain how much is it costing them at the moment it is part of that greater complex, so proportionately there will be some element of security costs, per square footage costs, and they put an awning in place a number of years ago. We are advised now that the hull has been secured, that the wooden structure internally can now be ventilated by a purpose-built hatch that was put in a number of years ago, so we have at least arrested the decline in terms deterioration and options remain available for the future. Q50 Mr Mitchell: In my experience problems of this nature affecting museums - and they are not uncommon on the mainland and certainly we have encountered them in our fishing heritage museum in Grimsby - are largely due to lack money. How far is your Department responsible in the sense it has starved the museums of the money that they need to catalogue, to order their exhibits and to generally bring things up-to-date? Does the responsibility really lie with cash starvation? The two museum representatives are trying to look impassive but if they want to nod that in their experience that is true I can say, "Let the record show, Mr Chairman, that the museum representatives nodded assent at this point." I will come to them later so do not look impassive! Mr Sweeney: To give you an idea of the current context in which the Department approaches these matters, we are a department which at this moment in time is putting in per annum in revenue terms £11.2 million to the museums. To address the issue of under-investment in the estate in the museums, we have agreed a package, as I said earlier, of £13.5 million. In recent years we have also put in place a voluntary early retirement scheme. Earlier on I alluded to this modernisation and reform programme. We put £3.7 million in place to facilitate that modernisation and reform programme which is so important to the future of the museums. It might be self-serving for me to say that within competing resources, just to give you an example, the Public Records Office in Northern Ireland, one of the three archetypal organisations in the United Kingdom today, its 53 kilometres of public records are in a building that has now been declared unfit for purpose and it will require in the region of £30 million to construct a purpose-designed building to house those essential records. And finally a number of years ago, two or three years ago, we invested £3 million in the Armagh Planetarium. Any department, in this case a small department like DCAL, will always have competing priorities. I personally believe, having looked at a number of other museums in the United Kingdom and talked to a number of people in this field, that our level of resources toward MAGNI is not unreasonable. Q51 Mr Mitchell: Are Northern Ireland getting an unfair deal compared to museums on the mainland? Mr Sweeney: I could not make a statement objectively on that. Q52 Mr Mitchell: Will this Report lead you to improve the financing of the museums? Mr Sweeney: In reality, we are looking at this modernisation and reform programme, and part of the presumption is to ask if the museums could increase the proportion of their own self-generated revenue because all the indications are that the public expenditure framework within Northern Ireland is likely to be one of constraint rather than expansion. Q53 Mr Mitchell: Mr Cooke, would you like to tell us, is it basically a problem of shortage of money? Mr Cooke: Mr Mitchell, I think it would be fair to say that money is also an issue, but I do agree with Mr Sweeney the organisation and the Department are genuinely working together to instigate and see through a widespread reform and modernisation programme within the organisation. That involves a management restructuring and it involves bringing our pay bill down from where it is at the moment. In order to assist us to do that, the Department has provided us with £3.7 million in terms of a voluntary early retirement scheme. The Department has approved the senior management posts for restructuring that I have asked for. The Department has provided us with £13.5 million across the current three-year period. Within that kind of resource envelope we still face many challenges and there are many issues of prioritisation that we face. It is very clear arising out of this Report that we have one major piece of capital development work happening at the moment at the Ulster Museum, which is right at the centre of the city in the Botanic Gardens and covers arts, history and science. It is a major landmark building in Northern Ireland. Coming out of this it is quite clear that the Audit Office is recommending that we look at the possibility of creating a collections resource centre down on the Contra site in order to take this situation, which is an inherited situation, of 50 stores of very variable quality and trying to rationalise that situation. Q54 Mr Mitchell: Do I get you saying, to sum that up, that the basic problem is shortage of money but it is compounded by other problems - management, organisation and other difficulties? Mr Cooke: I would accept that there is more the organisation can do and should do to be as efficient and effective as possible but within that of course we could in the longer term spend more money, particularly capital money, to transform our situation. Q55 Mr Mitchell: A double-headed question. I just get the impression, certainly from the pictures and photographs in this Report, like the incredible one on page 14 of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum which looks like a junkyard. There are tyres, there is what looks to be a bicycle, there is a grinding wheel, there is what looks to be a stepladder. This is just a junkyard, is it not? How far is the Folk Museum dragging the rest down? Mr Sweeney: Obviously in terms of my visits to the various stores this was one of the stores that I went to first. The Report itself in terms of this particular photograph on page 14 does allude to the fact that some of the clutter to the forefront is actually spare parts rather than part of the collection, but my earlier impressions at a number of the stores is that there is at one level a very strategic approach required but at the lower level there is a very basic housekeeping approach that is required. Q56 Mr Mitchell: We have a lovely picture of some grandfather clocks, which you could flog for large sums of money. Why do you not have a disposals policy? Mr Sweeney: We do have a disposals policy. Q57 Mr Mitchell: The grandfather clocks would fetch a fortune. Mr Sweeney: Whether it is proactive or not and whether in this case the grandfather clock collection could be looked at --- in this instance I see that Mr Cooke is particularly keen to make a point so I may defer to him. Mr Cooke: Mr Mitchell, if I can address the issue of the disposals approach. Museums across the UK are guided by a number of codes of ethics and one of them is the Museums, Libraries and Archives Accreditation Scheme by which a museum becomes registered. That accreditation scheme makes it very clear in relation to disposals that decisions to dispose of items will not be made and cannot be made with the principal aim of generating fund. It is this kind of core sense that collections are held in perpetuity for the public good and the stewardship of them needs to be looked at in a continuum beyond current financial pressures. While I suppose one can understand people suggesting that parts of the collection could be sold off in order to deal with immediate funding issues, it is something, I have to say, that is frowned on and is not allowable. Q58 Mr Mitchell: Okay, so you cannot sell them to tidy things up. I see also that the coin collection at the main museum is in a mess. I would have thought coins are fairly easy. In Yorkshire they would be the centre of religion and you would go in and venerate them and yet your coin collection is in a real mess. Mr Cooke: Could I say to you, Mr Mitchell, that at this point it is not in a mess and that is because a proper and due housekeeping exercise has taken place on that collection. I absolutely accept that at the time the Audit Office visited that collection that it was in an untidy and unacceptable state. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the store. It was a housekeeping issue, it was untidy; it has now been tidied. It houses something like 46,000 items, coinage and bank notes, it is in a secure place, there is nothing wrong with the environmental controls, and Mr Sweeney and I visited it about ten days ago and we are satisfied with the state in which the coins are now being stored. Chairman: Mr Mitchell is a young thruster who likes to get rid of aging artefacts! Mr Davidson, you are the last questioner. Q59 Mr Davidson: I see in the Report there is mention here in paragraph 2 that: "However, MAGNI told us that its revenue budget for each of the next three years poses substantial challenges." When asked, Mr Sweeney, whether or not you thought MAGNI was underfunded you said you could not compare. Why can you not compare? Mr Sweeney: Could I ask you for the reference please? Q60 Mr Davidson: Paragraph 2 on page 9, the bottom sentence. Mr Sweeney: I have difficulty making out the reference at the very bottom of the page. Q61 Mr Davidson: The bottom of that paragraph. Mr Sweeney: I am with you. Q62 Mr Davidson: Leaving that aside, the point was you said about funding you could not make a comparison and I am asking you why could you not make a comparison? Mr Sweeney: What I have done is I have looked at the benchmarking exercises on a number of fronts, such as for example computerisation, percentage of artefacts stored in appropriate conditions, and I have spoken to the Chief Executive of the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council because you will appreciate I am on a very steep learning curve here. What I have not been able to do and, if I may say so, it is the nature of a complex organisation like MAGNI it is composed of four museums --- Q63 Mr Davidson: Wait, wait, wait, I understand that you are relatively new but the Department is not new. If you are the head of the Department, I would have thought you would have inherited some work that had been done before you. It would appear from what you are saying that the Department has never compared elsewhere. I am just seeking to clarify why that is. Mr Sweeney: If we looked at, for example, a single site like the British Museum and compared it with the sites that we have in MAGNI --- Q64 Mr Davidson: To be fair, you are bound to be able to find better comparisons. Mr Sweeney: I have not seen evidence of a systematic benchmarking exercise. Q65 Mr Davidson: And why do you think that is? Mr Sweeney: Part of the reason has been just getting a comparator with MAGNI. We have not been able to get --- Q66 Mr Davidson: In the whole of the United Kingdom? Efforts have been made in the whole of the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic and there is no comparison to be found at all? Mr Sweeney: I have to be honest with you and say that although I have tried to satisfy myself around a range of benchmarking exercises and looked at key performance indicators in terms of today how does our annual funding and capital grant towards MAGNI compare with revenue and capital support across the UK across all the museums, I have not carried out that exercise and I have no evidence to support that exercise. Q67 Mr Davidson: Mr Cooke, you are more directly involved in this. Have you done any comparisons or have you any feel for this? Mr Cooke: I have a feel for it, Mr Davidson, but I have not done what you might regard as a scientific comparison. You will be aware yourself of the National Museums in Scotland and the range of activities that they have from the Chambers Street site --- Q68 Mr Davidson: Probably not as much as you. Mr Cooke: From the Chambers Street site right through to the Flight Museum which houses Concorde and so on. In Wales, I think Wales have eight or nine museums as opposed to our four but they do have folk museums and they do have arts museums. Q69 Mr Davidson: Have you compared it bit by bit then? Mr Cooke: What we have done is we have made the case to the Department that particularly on the capital front Northern Ireland has not been as successful at attracting funds to its national museums as Scotland and Wales for example or the big national museums like at Liverpool which perhaps would be similar in size. I think we have had some success with making that argument. In terms of revenue funding --- Q70 Mr Davidson: Can I just come on to revenue funding because we have only got limited time and I am conscious that you want to get a plane out of here at some stage. In terms of admissions and income from admissions and visitors and so on, do you have statistics that indicate the socio-economic backgrounds of the people who come and whether you are reaching all parts of Northern Ireland, both in terms of social class as well as other groupings? Mr Cooke: We have some information. I do not think it is entirely as widespread as you ask. We know, for example, that 32% of our visitors are from C to D/ backgrounds which is a very strong performance in terms of UK benchmarking as a whole. We have a strong sense of repeat visitors coming. We know roughly the numbers of out-of-state visitors and the role that we play in their contribution to tourism. Q71 Mr Davidson: If we were to ask you to produce figures indicating that you were as good as or better than the appropriate benchmarks in the UK, you would be able to do that, would you? Mr Cooke: I think there is some commonalty in the KPIs which are comparable to DCMS and what the national museums --- Q72 Mr Davidson: If we could have that, Chairman, I think it would be helpful and it would save me pursuing this, particularly in terms of demonstrating that you appeal or do not to those who traditionally would not be considered museum users, as it were. I think that would be very helpful. In terms of trading I have not been in Northern Ireland all that often but I remember being struck by the amount of cheap tat that there was on sale to tourists. There is bound to be a lot of stuff that you have that could be replicated or copied from which you could draw an income. Has any of that been explored? Mr Cooke: Yes it has, and it is currently being explored with more vigour. I mentioned that we were reforming and modernising the organisation and just within the last two months we have appointed a new Director of Marketing, Communications and Training and are intending to appoint a Commercial Manager across the summer so we can have some self-generated income. Q73 Mr Davidson: Okay, if that is being pursued I am happy with that. Can I just look at the question of acquisitions for a moment because we discussed what you already have, but I got the impression that you do not have much money for acquisitions and that really what you get depends on what you are left, which presumably means that there are substantial gaps in the range that you would wish to draw out of a museum. Is that fair? Mr Cooke: That would be fair. Q74 Mr Davidson: How do your acquisition policy and patterns of funding again compare with similar museums elsewhere in the UK? Mr Cooke: Our acquisition funding would be much less than similar institutions in the UK, significantly less. Q75 Mr Davidson: Are there any particular areas where you are short? Mr Cooke: To be clear our acquisition budget in the last number of years has been £50,000 reduced to £25,000 in the current financial year, and that is a reflection of the flat line grant and the challenges the organisation faces. Q76 Mr Davidson: £25,000 for acquisitions for all the museums in the whole of Northern Ireland? Mr Cooke: That is correct, all the national museums. Q77 Mr Davidson: I find that almost incredible. Mr Sweeney, that is just loose change, is it not really? Your Department will pay more than that for tea and coffee and so on, will it not? Mr Sweeney: The thrust of this Report is to say that over the next few years the emphasis should be on the storage facilities and the documentation to ensure that our custodianship of what we have at the moment is in a proper state. Q78 Mr Davidson: I do understand that but presumably there are opportunities being missed as life goes on and that an undue focus upon preserving what you have - and I understand some of the points that have been made by my colleagues - but surely you have got to keep your eye on the ball in terms of the on-going role of museums? Mr Sweeney: I think the focus over the next few years will be on this more proactive approach to the disposal policy which is in place. Q79 Mr Davidson: Can I just pick up the question of disposals because retaining things in the museum obviously in the context of having only £25,000 for acquisitions has an opportunity cost. Have you not considered selling to buy and whether if you have 97 grandfather clocks or what have you, selling off some of them in order to buy something that will otherwise go abroad or be lost forever would be worthwhile? Mr Cooke: Consistent with the guidelines that I mentioned earlier, I think it is incumbent given the situation that has been demonstrated with precision by the Audit Office that a group of museums looks very carefully at its disposals policy and seeks to identify whether or not by following in part a disposals policy, it can --- Q80 Mr Davidson: I am sorry, you think it should but you are not actually doing that at the moment? Mr Cooke: We are not doing it in a proactive fashion. I think the Report itself says that. Q81 Mr Davidson: So we will see a sell-to-buy policy being carefully examined from now on, will we? Mr Cooke: I would not describe it as a sell-to-buy policy but consistent with the guidelines of the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council we will look to see whether or not we can use disposals in a rationalisation of our stores and not primarily, I have to say to you, because it is contrary to the guidelines for the principal reason of raising funds. Q82 Mr Davidson: The final point I want to make is in terms of thefts and losses from the museums; are you aware of any of either? Mr Sweeney: Could I defer to Mr Cooke again for the detail of that please. Mr Cooke: As a result of this Report one of the things I asked from my senior staff was about losses. There are no losses identified as a result of storage issues or documentation issues, but there have been a number of occasions in the past when items have gone missing, a small number of items I have to say. There was one occasion, for example - I think we are going back to 1991 or 1992 - when a coin which was on display in Spain went missing and appropriate action was carried out at the time and a refund was made. Q83 Mr Davidson: As a result of this exercise, you are not conscious of there having been any pattern of thefts or losses as a result of the fact that things were not adequately catalogued and monitored? Mr Cooke: Not for any of those reasons. Q84 Mr Davidson: Sorry, for other reasons then? Mr Cooke: No, not as a result of other reasons. Chairman: There is one supplementary from Mr Bacon. Q85 Mr Bacon: Thank you very much although if I may say it is the same subject divided between Mr Cooke and the Treasury Officer of Accounts for Northern Ireland, Mr Thomson. Firstly, Mr Cooke, can you tell me what the total value of the land is upon which the Ulster Museum and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum sit? Mr Cooke: Yes I can. The landholdings of the organisation overall, Mr Bacon, are £29.1 million as at 31 March 2006. Q86 Mr Bacon: And most of that £29.1 million is represented by the Ulster Museum and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum? Mr Cooke: From the land as opposed to the buildings? Q87 Mr Bacon: Yes. Mr Cooke: The land for the Ulster Museum is £5 million. The total, because it is divided into transport and folk, is £14.7 million at the Folk and Transport Museum. Q88 Mr Bacon: Mr Thomson, you will be familiar with the Lyons Report which records that in GB at any rate departments can keep a proportion of their sales of fixed assets to reinvest. What standing does the Lyons Report have in Northern Ireland? Mr Thomson: Firstly, we do have a policy which we have had in place for several years now that any department or public body can keep 50% of the proceeds up to £10 million. Q89 Mr Bacon: Presumably if there were some special negotiation they might be able to do more? Mr Thomson: Absolutely. Q90 Mr Bacon: For the sake of argument, if the Ulster Museum of MAGNI wanted to sell some or all of its land assets in order to reinvest to improve its storage, or a national gallery or something like that, your department would not have a problem with that in principle so long as there was a robust business case? Mr Thomson: We would consider it and put it forward to ministers and ministers ultimately take the decision on the allocation of resources. Q91 Mr Bacon: Has there been any suggestion from your Department along these lines, Mr Cooke? Mr Cooke: From the Ulster Museum to DCAL as opposed directly to DNP, Mr Bacon, I wrote to the previous Permanent Secretary identifying two specific possible asset sales with a view to seeking support for having the proceeds of these asset sales put towards the Collections Resource Centre that we discussed earlier. Q92 Mr Bacon: So for improving the storage? Mr Cooke: That is correct. Q93 Mr Bacon: Not for a national gallery? Mr Cooke: No. Q94 Mr Bacon: There are no plans for a national gallery then? Mr Cooke: I think we face substantial challenges. Q95 Mr Bacon: Would not a national gallery be more fun? Why do you not ask the people of Northern Ireland which they would prefer? Mr Cooke: I guess we have a number of national museums already and my focus, and I think the Department's to be fair, is very much on seeing that those buildings and assets are treated satisfactorily for the future. Mr Bacon: Thank you. Q96 Chairman: I will sum up, Mr Cooke. You have been Chief Executive of the National Museums and Galleries in Northern Ireland since September 2003; is that right? Mr Cooke: That is correct. Q97 Chairman: From the evidence we have had, it is not clear to us that you know with any degree of certainty what assets you have, where they are, what their condition nor indeed what their value is. The only conclusion is that your collection is not well-administered, managed and utilised and that you have largely, or to a certain extent, ignored previous findings of the Comptroller and Auditor of General Northern Ireland. Do you have any comment to make before we consider our report? Mr Cooke: The Report makes a remark about a lack of cohesion within collections within the national museums and that is something that would coincide with my own analysis of the situation upon arrival as Chief Executive. I have been very focused since then on creating a framework for systematic and sustainable improvement across the national museums including the appointment of a new Director of Collections and Interpretation, including bringing forward proposals to appoint a new Head of Collections Care and a Head of Collections Management, on refocusing and prioritising effort inside the organisation, on developing an ICT platform which will allow computerisation to move ahead at last at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, and developing with the Department KPIs which will measure our performance in these areas and in bringing forward two key plans, a storage development plan and a documentation plan, both of which will I believe lead to substantial improvements in this current situation. Q98 Chairman: Thank you for that. We will hold you to all that. Departments in Northern Ireland must know that when the Comptroller and Auditor General issues reports they are to be taken with the utmost seriousness and if they are not, as happened with computerisation of the Folk Museum, the Permanent Secretary will be summoned here to account for the lack of action on the Comptroller's Report. Mr Cooke: Chairman, could I just make one point on the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, with your indulgence. I would be concerned if the impression was given to the Committee or publicly that the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum is not a successful visitor attraction. It is an extremely successful visitor attraction. In fact, it currently holds the title "Irish Museum of the Year" so it is very well regarded by both users and its peers in the museums sector. Q99 Chairman: Thank you very much for that. Mr Sweeney: Thank you, Chairman. |