Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
15 MAY 2006 DEPUTY
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER
JOHN YATES
QPM, DETECTIVE SUPERINTENDENT
GRAHAM MCNULTY
AND MS
CARMEN DOWD
Q40 Jenny Willott: That was why I
asked based on the paperwork you have already seen.
Ms Dowd: It would be impossible
even to comment on the basis of the paperwork we have seen because
it is just so preliminary at the moment.
Chairman: I know that a heavy hint from
the police is worth far more than a light hint from other quarters.
Q41 Mr Prentice: Did I mishear you
earlier? Did you say that some people had declined to co-operate
with the investigation?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Yes. If they are witnesses, a bit like yourselves, we cannot put
thumbscrews on them and say "come and talk to us". If
they do not want to talk to us, they do not want to talk to us.
Mr Prentice: I am sorry,
I did not catch all of that.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
If they are witnesses, if they do not want to talk to—
Mr Prentice: They do not
want to talk to you.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
They do not have to.
Q42 Mr Prentice: Why? If the police
were to say to me, "Mr Prentice, we would like to talk to
you about something", I would say "fire away".
Why would they not want to co-operate with your investigation?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
In some cases they have taken legal advice that says in their
view there is nothing they can help us with—in their view.
Clearly there are things we think they could help us with but
I cannot—
Mr Prentice: People take legal advice
which tells them that they should not co-operate with the police?
Chairman: We are innocents here, as you
understand. This shocks us greatly.
Q43 Mr Prentice: You know I am shocked.
I go through life being shocked. [***]?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
[***].
Q44 Mr Prentice: [***].
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
[***].
Q45 Mr Prentice: We had Sir Alistair
Graham in front of us last week. He chairs the Committee on Standards
in Public Life. You told us earlier about your investigation in
city academies. I put it to him that it was corrupt, with a small
`c', I think, to reward people who sponsor city academies with
a peerage, and he agreed with me that that was corrupt. Number
10 in The Observer on 18 October made the connection absolutely
clear and explicit. I said in the Committee it has not been denied,
it has not been clarified, it has not been retracted by Number
10. The Number 10 spokesperson said, "Yes, people who sponsor
city academies should be in the House of Lords, hopefully taking
the Labour whip, so that they can contribute to the public debate
on the benefit of city academies". Of those two, which view
do you lean towards?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
I do not have a view on that at the moment.
Q46 Mr Prentice: You do not?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
No.
Q47 Grant Shapps: Just one comment
you made to my colleague, David, about witnesses. I thought you
had said in your opening statement that at least one witness had
perhaps moved from witness to suspect.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
They can move.
Q48 Grant Shapps: Not that it has
happened? I thought you were indicating that in something you
read.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
I think it may have happened actually. I will have to look backwards
in a second and hopefully get a nod.
Q49 Grant Shapps: I thought that
was what you read.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Yes. It happened last week.
Q50 Grant Shapps: It has happened?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Yes.
Q51 Grant Shapps: I thought in answer
to David's question just now you said it had not happened.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
It has happened, from my left, and it can happen all the time.
I am sorry if I was unclear.
Q52 Paul Flynn: Blaenau Gwent: did
you have a formal complaint about the possible offer of a peerage
corruptly to the late Peter Law?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
We have had a letter on that. We have reviewed it and we are not
investigating the matter.
Q53 Paul Flynn: You decided very
rapidly not to continue with that, you have thrown it out?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Yes. There was an issue, of which I have not got the detail in
my head—My colleague may be able to assist us, if you would
like.
Q54 Paul Flynn: Perhaps your colleague
can tell us. You have looked at the other cases and decided there
might be matters in there you want to investigate further but
you decided nothing further in this case.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
There was an issue around the denial of it in another forum which
indicated that there was nothing there.
Q55 Paul Flynn: It was the television
interview that Peter Law gave in December?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
My colleague has got the details.
Detective Superintendent McNulty:
Could you repeat the question?
Q56 Paul Flynn: You had a letter,
a formal complaint, but within a fortnight you rejected it and
said there were no grounds for complaint. What was the basis for
that?
Detective Superintendent McNulty:
There were a couple of reasons in terms of it fitting within the
guidelines of this investigation because there have been lots
of complaints about various individuals. We did review it very
quickly and from that we ascertained a couple of things, one of
which was the TV interview where he denied that he had been offered
a peerage prior to passing away. At that point we got back on
to this investigation and felt that point should not be followed
up.
Q57 Chairman: Just so that we get
the parameters of this: are we dealing with all political parties?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
The three major political parties.
Q58 Chairman: So we are across the
parties.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Yes.
Q59 Chairman: What period are we
talking about?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
Initially back to 2005 but then working back, if need be, to 2000.
Detective Superintendent McNulty:
It adds up to about 140, 150 peerages. The rationale for that
is how do you work out if the 2005 peerage list is unusual? You
look at the other years' previously to ascertain if anything different
happened.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Yates:
You have got to look back in order to make the judgment around
that.
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