Examination of Witnesses (Questions 300-319)
DR KIM
HOWELLS MP, MR
TREVOR MOORE
AND MR
GRAHAM GLOVER
25 APRIL 2006
Q300 Robert Key: Will the list for
a treaty include dual-use items?
Dr Howells: Hopefully it will
include all items that could be used as weapons. We are very,
very keen to see that there is not the kind of modification and
reconfiguration of what at the moment look like civilian products
for military uses, and I would see that as part of a much wider
dialogue about how we approach this whole subject.
Q301 Mr Borrow: Minister, in that
same speech you mentioned the capacity-building requirements of
other countries in terms of arms control and that the work that
the UK was doing in terms of outreach work had moved beyond simply
popping over somewhere to have a little chat and back again and
that you are doing more targeted work. Could you explain what
sort of detailed outreach work the UK is doing in countries in
terms of the prospective treaty, how many countries are likely
to need support and whether countries other than the UK will need
to contribute to that support if internationally the treaty is
going to work as it should work?
Dr Howells: This is a very, very
important point. We know that if this treaty is going to mean
anything and if it is going to be effective then we have to help
those countries to build up their own capacity to make it happen,
so we have held extensive discussions with our allies, with China,
with Russia, with the US to try and understand how best this could
come about. I am due to go to Moscow very shortly, for example,
where there will be quite extensive discussions about how we might
take this forward. Probably the most optimistic signal is that
the UN General Assembly is interested in it and they seem to agree
with us that the best way to secure an arms trade treaty that
is going to work is through a UN-based process. We looked at other
ways in which we might do it—the Ottawa way and there were
a number of suggestions—and we think that this is the proper
way to do it, but it does involve painstaking work, it involves
a lot of diplomacy, and we have to try to convince some very big
arms manufacturers that they are best served by this as well as,
if you like, those countries that suffer most as a consequence
of the proliferation of arms. It is a big diplomatic offensive
that we have undertaken, but we are determined to press on with
it. It is something which the Foreign Secretary first aired about
a year ago, I have taken it on a little now and we are determined
to press on with it.
Q302 Mr Borrow: Have we got any practical
details in terms of the cost of doing an effective programme in
this area and the numbers of experts in these areas that will
be required in order to give the support to capacity building
in other countries and whether that pool of expertise actually
exists in the first place?
Dr Howells: The outreach work
to promote effective export control is certainly, as you say,
Mr Borrow, extremely important in the fight against proliferation.
EU outreach activities include seminars, visits, covering topics
such as industry awareness, capacity building, customs procedures
and assistance with drafting legislation, which is also very important,
and a good current example of EU outreach work is the EU's €1.5
million pilot project running from 2005 to 2007 on the export
control of dual-use items. We have four nations identified as
key partners in this pilot project: China, the UAE, Serbia and
Montenegro and the Ukraine, and that is proceeding.
Q303 Robert Key: Minister, there
was a lot of progress made during our recent Presidency of the
EU on the Code of Conduct on Arms Exports; in fact, at working
level the EU Code was agreed, then it ran into the sand. What
went wrong?
Dr Howells: Mr Key, the revised
code is certainly agreed, as you say, at a technical level and
the Council has agreed to adopt the new arrangements at an appropriate
juncture. The new arrangements should see a legally binding common
position which will further enrich and entrench Member States'
strong commitment to common standards. The main changes envisaged
are these: an increase in the scope of the code so that its criteria
cover all applications from brokering, transit, trans-shipment
and intangible technology transfer licences—which have been
very difficult as you know—in addition to physical exports
that can be uncovered, and I can remember from my own time in
DTI the difficulty that we had with issues like intellectual property
rights—those intangibles are extremely difficult to control
in so many ways—and an obligation on Member States to refuse
export licences if they consider that there is a clear risk that
the items covered by the licence will be used to commit serious
violations of international humanitarian law. This amendment was
suggested by the international committee of the Red Cross which
I think is pretty clear evidence that the EU is open to suggestions
from external parties.
Q304 Robert Key: Forgive me, but
what do you mean by that, pressure from external parties?
Dr Howells: The Red Cross, NGOs,
we are listening to non-governmental organisations in a way which
I at least—I do not know about you, Mr Key—find very
refreshing.
Q305 Robert Key: Sure.
Dr Howells: It brings experience
on the ground in areas where weapons have been used to bear on
the deliberations.
Q306 Robert Key: Which nation is
blocking it then?
Dr Howells: Trevor, you have had
long experience of this one.
Mr Moore: I was the chairman of
COARM—
Q307 Robert Key: Congratulations
on your success; what a pity the politicians could not live up
to it.
Mr Moore: We are hoping that consensus
can be reached, but we do not think it is particularly constructive
to point fingers. Consensus has not yet been reached but we hope
that that can be achieved—
Robert Key: Mr Moore, I am not asking
you to point fingers, I am asking you, within these four walls,
to just tell us—come on now, in the spirit of friendship—
Mr Keetch: Write it down.
Q308 Robert Key: Next time we visit
these countries perhaps we can suggest they should mend their
ways. Minister, can you help us? A shrug of the shoulders will
do.
Dr Howells: I cannot help you.
Q309 Chairman: The broadcasting sign
is up there, in fairness—
Dr Howells: Trevor is quite right,
Mr Key, I do not think it would be constructive to point fingers
at this stage. We are negotiating very hard on this and we are
convinced we can make progress.
Chairman: It was a very good try, if
I might say so, Robert. Shall we move on?
Q310 Robert Key: One final point.
Will this EU code actually be applied to dual-use items again?
Dr Howells: As far as I am aware,
yes. All countries will certainly have to take particular account
of the final use of any products which they know are being exported
for the purposes of licensed production in third countries.
Q311 Mr Davies: I think a very important
constitutional point just came out of the exchange you have had,
Dr Howells, with Mr Key. Am I not right that if the provision
which was, of course, included in the proposed draft European
Constitution last year under which meetings of the Council of
Ministers in legislative mode would be in public, we would know
who it was who was opposing this particular code of conduct or
this particular set of agreed restrictions? That is a concrete
difference, is it not, between the present regime in the European
Union and the one that would have been brought about had we had
the European Constitution in place?
Dr Howells: I am sure you are
absolutely right, Mr Davies.
Q312 Mr Davies: Thank you, Dr Howells.
We have an arms embargo with China, do we not?
Dr Howells: Yes.
Q313 Mr Davies: That is something
many of us feel should not be relaxed in the present circumstances.
It was therefore with very considerable surprise that I learned
that export licences had been granted for engines for combat aircraft,
specifically the Rolls-Royce 140 Spey engine for the JGH-7 combat
aircraft in China. How can that be?
Dr Howells: The China arms embargo
prohibits the export of military aircraft and helicopters, vessels
of war, armoured fighting vehicles and other such weapons platforms.
However, the UK interpretation of the embargo does not extend
to components of these weapons. Aircraft engines and radar therefore
are not caught by our interpretation of the embargo. However,
export licence applications for this type of equipment are assessed
very rigorously on a case-by-case basis against the consolidated
EU and national arms export licensing criteria. The criterion,
Mr Davies, sets out clearly our commitment to assess the risk
that exports might be diverted under undesirable conditions and
used for internal repression, external aggression or the risk
of reverse engineering or unintended technology transfer, which
is also very serious. Where we judge the proposed export might
be used in contravention of the criteria those export licence
applications are refused.
Q314 Mr Davies: Yes, but, Dr Howells,
the fact is in this case that the export licence has been granted
and an aero engine for a combat aircraft is a key part of a combat
aircraft, so this is a gaping hole, is it not, in the arms embargo
with China?
Dr Howells: Mr Davies, we look
very carefully at each one of those on a case-by-case basis and,
if we consider that it would be used for internal repression,
or any of the other—
Q315 Mr Davies: I am not suggesting
combat aircraft are going to be used for internal repression,
but it does build up the offensive capability of China and the
whole point of the arms embargo is that we should not build up
the offensive capability of China. I put it to you that our policy
has been completely incoherent and we are simply standing idly
by and allowing the Chinese to make a mockery of the system. They
cannot purchase from us a complete combat aircraft but they are
perfectly capable of producing their own air frames anyway, and
we kindly supply the aero engines. We are in fact deciding to
provide the Chinese with an additional offensive air capability.
You cannot really be much more in breach of the purpose of the
arms embargo than that, can you?
Dr Howells: I certainly do not
believe that (a) we are standing idly by, Mr Davies, and (b) we
are enhancing their capability.
Q316 Mr Davies: I am sorry, Dr Howells:
are you telling the committee that supplying an engine for a combat
aircraft is not enhancing the capability? Are you seriously telling
the committee that?
Dr Howells: I would have thought
that a spare engine or any other part of an aircraft allows them
to maintain that capability. It does not extend that capability,
I would have thought.
Q317 Mr Davies: No, but the engines
are being fitted to new aircraft as they are coming off the production
line. No doubt spares are being supplied as well. That is increasing
capability, is it not, and spares are also increasing capability?
Surely, Dr Howells, you will not disagree with me about that.
The capability of an air force is the capability to fly and if
you supply spares you enhance their capability to fly; they can
fly more hours. What you are doing, I think, is just trying to
wheedle out of a very embarrassing situation which the Government
has got itself into, in which you have been declaring that the
Government is signed up to the EU arms embargo for China, that
the Government supports the objectives of the arms embargo, and
then you have been, as I say, allowing a coach and horses to be
driven through that by granting these licences for these aero
engines. The Chinese must be laughing all the way from Harbin
to Chungking, I should think.
Dr Howells: I would not describe
my answer as trying to wheedle out of anything. I thought I was
quite candid with you about it, and I am certainly not trying
to apologise for it in any way, nor trying to rationalise it as
some kind of means of making money out of China. I would say this
to you, Mr Davies,—
Q318 Mr Davies: What is the objective
then?
Dr Howells: Let me say. We have
certainly got a developing dialogue with China on export controls
and we have taken a lead on the China leg of the EU Export Control
Outreach Pilot project, which I have just described. We have gained
knowledge of Chinese export controls in the Government's very
serious approach to export controls and we have tried to clarify
that to them, and we think we understand China as well as any
country does now. We are working to foster China's emergence as
a responsible global player and to encourage it to define its
interests more broadly in somewhere like Africa, for instance.
Q319 Mr Davies: Dr Howells, I think
you have let the cat out of the bag by saying that you are leading
the way when it is quite clear that what the Government is actually
doing is that the Government wants to relax this embargo without
daring to say so, and you are trying to push things as far as
possible and even breach blatantly the spirit of the embargo by
granting this kind of export licence.
Dr Howells: No, we certainly do
not want to do that and we do not want to lift the embargo before
there is agreement throughout the EU on this—
Mr Davies: You are trying to push in
that direction and you are leading the way.
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