Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
MR SIMON
CLEGG, MS
SARA FRIEND,
MR MIKE
LEE AND
MS SHIRLEY
ROBERTSON OBE
8 NOVEMBER 2005
Q40 Ms Clark: It is reckoned that
Queensland made probably about £26 million out of the training
camps that were set up before those Olympics. Has there been any
work done as to what the economic impact might be of training
camps being set up in the lead up to our Olympics?
Mr Lee: Not specifically on training
camps. In fact, if you look at the Queensland example, the overall
gain to the Queensland economy was far greater than that, both
in terms of contracts won, tourism boosts, what they call showcasing
Queensland. The figures are closer, they say, to £250 million
in total. The economic impact that has so far been done in the
context of the London Games tells us that the boost that it could
lead to for the UK economy can vary between one and four billion,
partly depending on how active we are. I think one of the messages
that hopefully is coming across today is that these are opportunities
but they are not God given certainties. People have got to own
the right to host those camps, to take advantage of the tourist
opportunities to win those contracts. I do think there is a challenge
here for the nations and regions. What we are doing suggests they
are up for it because if we do not take advantage of it in the
UK others will take advantage of it.
Q41 Ms Clark: That is obviously one
of the reasons that we are looking at this issue and have invited
you along today, all of us want to make sure that Scotland does
everything that can be done to make sure that we benefit as much
as possible from this Olympics.
Mr Lee: Just to say, David Williams,
who is the CEO of EventScotland, worked in Queensland. I do not
know if you have met him, I think he is going to be one of your
witnesses. It would be interesting to talk to him about Queensland.
I think he is quite usefully placed because Queensland is further
from Sydney than Scotland is from London. Queensland realised
all those opportunities and EventScotland themselves talked about
somewhere in the region of a £100 million boost. Their focus
is on conferences, conventions and non-sporting events. That is
an area the Committee may well want to look at.
Q42 David Mundell: I want to clarify
something that I think you said in relation to the point Gordon
raised about equestrian events. What you are saying is that there
is no prospect of the equestrian teams coming to Scotland because,
superficially for rural Scotland, that would look to be one of
the pitches they could make in relation to the non-track and field
and swimming pool. Basically you are saying there is likely to
be no realistic prospect of equestrian teams being based in Scotland.
Mr Clegg: I think one has to be
realistic and the chances are extremely slim. You will find horses
flying in on 707 jets converted to stables probably on a multi-country
basis, planes going from country A to country B, picking up horses
and delivering them to Stansted and probably straight into the
Olympic area from there.
Q43 David Mundell: On the basis of
what you said I fully understand that and I think it is fairly
important so that people do not go down a route of trying to do
that because superficially it seems an option. Can I just ask
you about the interesting wording which I think appears in some
of the London Organising literature about the relocation of swimming
pools and arenas post-Olympics. What does that practically mean?
Is it effectively just dismantling them and moving them?
Mr Lee: Yes.
Q44 David Mundell: Is there any concept
as to how that process will work?
Mr Lee: Again, that is something
that is under discussion but as a commitment that was given relating
to the technology that is now in place, where it is possible,
to have essentially demountable arenas and also, frankly, swimming
pools which can literally be lifted out of the ground and moved.
Certainly, for example, the new aquatic centre that will be a
key part of the Olympic Park will have far more facilities in
terms of training pools than it can sustain in legacy mode once
the Games have been and gone. Therefore, what we have proposed
is that some of those temporary arenas—and we are very clear
incidentally—in the Olympic Park, of all the new venues
that have been created only five will be permanent venues within
the Olympic Park, the rest will be temporary venues and, therefore,
the proposal is that a number of those should be demounted and
relocated ideally within the UK itself.
Q45 David Mundell: There is no process
for that?
Mr Lee: That is part of what we
call our legacy planning as we are looking at the development
of the Olympic Park and it is identifying those venues that will
remain in the Olympic Park which will be adjusted to legacy use,
the most obvious of which is the main stadium which will go from
80,000 seats to 25,000 to then be a track and field centre and
a major new international facility. There are many other venues,
including the training pools at the aquatic centre, which potentially
are there for reuse in other parts of the country.
Q46 David Mundell: Does the Nation
and Regions Group have a role in that process?
Mr Lee: Potentially, yes, because
one of the things we have been working on with the DCMS in particular
is legacy becoming a part of the brief of the Nations and Regions
Group. Legacy exists in many different forms: education, health,
sports facilities, future use of the Olympic Park, tourism opportunities
and so on. The range of those work areas, the nations and regions
will be invited to be a part of that.
Q47 David Mundell: In relation to
the emphasis on young people to participate, where do you see
the balance lying between encouraging people who are already participating
at the moment to move up to elite athlete status and go for Olympic
participation, and those who currently may be doing no sport whatsoever
and just start getting involved?
Mr Lee: Just to say, if I may,
on behalf of LOCOG, and I am sure Simon will want to comment on
behalf of the BOA, from a LOCOG perspective, we are not responsible
either for grass root sport or for elite sport, we are responsible
to the IOC to stage a great Olympic and Paralympic Games in 2012.
However, when we won the right to stage those Games, and indeed
the whole bid campaign was based on the principle of inspiring
more young people into sport, we felt our job was to keep the
momentum of that going, to open the doors that others must go
through, through the sports development programmes and the work
that is being done in improving elite performance. We hope the
effect of a 2012 Games, both in the run up to 2012 and beyond,
is to achieve both, to inspire more young people to participate
and also to improve our own elite performance.
Mr Clegg: From my perspective
we need to go back to why we conceived this bid back in 1997,
and that was a very clear understanding that nothing had the potential
to move sport higher or more quickly up both the political and
social agendas in this country. Certainly through the successful
bid that has been achieved politically and we believe that position
will be sustained for the next seven years. I think the real opportunity
and the real challenge now is to move sport within the social
agenda. Obviously we have a remit for the high performance end
of sport in terms of leading and managing the British team at
the Olympic Games but, quite frankly, we need kids to be motivated
by the Olympic Games being hosted in London to take up sport.
A lot of work needs to be done with the home country sports councils
where the main responsibility for this area sits in conjunction
with the governing bodies. Collectively we need to put in place
a system that will take people from grass roots all the way up
to the Olympic podium in as seamless a transition as possible.
If we achieve our goal of delivering fourth place in the medal
table in 2012 and we have not driven a whole new generation of
kids into sport then we will all have failed.
Q48 Mr MacNeil: You will have heard
of the excellent C-ScOT campaign for an independent Scottish Olympic
team. Why should there not be an independent Scottish Olympic
team? I think it would be an interesting example. FIFA and the
Commonwealth Games Federation allow Scotland and, indeed, England
to participate and showcase themselves on the international stage.
Mr Clegg: I am going to ask my
colleague to lead on this, and then I will follow it up.
Ms Friend: I am afraid I did not
hear the very end of your question.
Q49 Mr MacNeil: The fact that FIFA
and the Commonwealth Games Federation allow Scotland and, indeed,
England to showcase themselves on the international stage, why?
Ms Friend: The Olympic movement
is obviously run and governed by the Olympic Committee and their
rules and regulations which effectively make up the Olympic Charter.
Through that it is the IOC's remit, and they are the only body
with this jurisdiction, to decide how to recognise National Olympic
Committees. In turn it is only a National Olympic Committee that
can lead a delegation to the Olympic Games. The IOC Charter, currently,
in rule 31 states that the IOC will only recognise or grant National
Olympic Committee status to an independent country recognised
by the international community. There are a number of other requirements
that have to be met, such as being recognised by five International
Federations and various other things. It is entirely within the
remit of the International Olympic Committee, not the British
Olympic Association or, with due respect, the government of any
one country to decide how it is recognised in the Olympic Movement.
Q50 Mr MacNeil: When you see countries
as small as the Cayman Islands and Bermuda participating, surely
an ancient such as Scotland should be able to participate?
Ms Friend: I can completely understand
the frustration and the element of inconsistency.
Q51 Mr Davidson: I do not understand
it.
Ms Friend: However, again, it
is entirely within the IOC's remit and the rules did change in
1996 and the territories that have been identified in other sectors
as having National Olympic Committee status who are not independent
countries recognised by the international community were all granted
NOC status before 1996, when the IOC subsequently changed their
rules. Before that their rules stated that they had open remit
within themselves to decide whether a territory or a geographical
area did warrant National Olympic Committee status but they have
since changed their rules.
Q52 Mr MacNeil: Looking at the old
USSR, in 1998 they had 132 medals, when it became 15 independent
nations they managed to get 162 medals. People were made aware
of Kazakhstan, Belarus and Moldova. Is it not far better we see
Scotland as a full member?
Mr Clegg: Those are independent
states recognised by the international community. Prior to 1996
the rule within the Olympic Charter stated that the definition
of a country was "a country, state, territory or part of
a territory which the IOC in its absolute discretion considers
an area of a recognised NOC." They changed that in 1996.
Since that time the rules and regulations state that the expression
"country" means an independent state recognised by the
international community and that is the rule the IOC has stuck
to since that time.
Q53 Mr MacNeil: Looking at the participation
means, would it not be better if the British Olympic Association
Committee started lobbying to allow England, Wales and Scotland
to put their names high up with Moldova?
Ms Robertson: Angus, can I ask
you a question? Do you know how many gold medals the Cayman Islands
won at the last Olympics?
Q54 Mr MacNeil: How many competitors
did the Cayman Islands have?
Ms Robertson: One.
Q55 Mr MacNeil: I asked you a question.
Ms Robertson: Now I understand
how it works. For an athlete it is a really scary prospect to
be pulled out of the British team and compete for Scotland, for
lots of different reasons. I sailed in a three person team last
time with two girls who live near Heathrow, English girls brought
up in the English system. To be honest, I do not know who I would
have sailed with in Scotland, there just was not that range of
talent. Also, we draw on such expertise and resources. We have
talked about the goal camps, the British goal camp is something
to be looked at and something to be admired. It goes way beyond
that. To be out on my own, without the support that we have being
part of the bigger team, is really scary and I think you would
struggle to win. I think if Chris Hoyt was here he would say the
same thing. He won his gold medal in cycling because he was part
of a much bigger team, he was part of that British team which
trained in Manchester with all the resources and technical support,
and that is why he won the gold medal. Also, if you ask us, we
are competing for Scotland. I am Scottish but I am also British.
In a way I feel slightly aggrieved, scratch me and I am blue and
white underneath.
Chairman: We would like to take evidence
from you more often.
Q56 Mr MacNeil: If it is a big team,
would you go for a European Union team?
Ms Robertson: It is not about
wanting to be part of a big team, it is that I want to win, and
I want to win for Scotland and I want to win for Britain and I
want to win. I do not want to go to the Olympics and watch somebody
else's flag going up the flagpole and hear someone else's anthem,
I want to hear the British Anthem.
Mr MacNeil: If your team mates were French
would you be interested in a European Union team?
Mr Walker: Angus wants you to be a martyr
to the cause.
Q57 Chairman: Perhaps you could answer
this question: how would the Scottish themselves think about this
report of a Scottish team?
Ms Robertson: I think we were
a bit upset that it came up in the media. We feel we are doing
our best for Scotland and Scotland did really well at the last
games, two gold medals, a silver and a bronze from a small nation.
The Cayman Islands did not win any medals. We feel passionate
that we are Scottish and British and we are proud to be part of
the team that BOA send because it is a really good team and it
is really well organised.
Q58 Mr MacNeil: People from other
nations might not know you are Scottish. You do not get a chance
to show this pride in Scotland.
Ms Robertson: Everybody in Scotland
knows that I am Scottish.
Mr Clegg: The most important thing
here is, whether people like it or not, we are governed by the
rules of the International Olympic Committee through the Olympic
Charter. They are absolutely black and white on this issue. My
understanding is only if we move from devolution to independence,
will Scotland be entitled to have its own national Olympic committee.
Professionally, I believe we are stronger collectively. I think
Shirley would admit that without the other two Sarah's, not only
was she unlikely to have won her gold medal she may not even have
been selected to go to the Games. Exactly the same can be said
for Katherine Granger in the women's pair who took a silver medal
in the rowing event. I believe that the collective interest of
high performance sport across the United Kingdom is much stronger,
working as one, and only by working collectively as one with a
common goal, Olympic success, will we achieve fourth place in
the medal table in 2012. It will require everyone to put whatever
baggage they are carrying behind them and focus on supporting
our athletes. The one thing I would love to see is more Scottish
athletes in the British team and more Scottish athletes winning
medals. I think that is a challenge for sportscotland and
for the athletes of Scotland and if they can achieve that I think
that will be a wonderful goal, and the whole of the British team
would be a richer place for it.
Q59 Mr McGovern: I want to ask a
supplementary question, I agree with Shirley, I am entirely comfortable
with the concept of a British team and I must commend Shirley
for mentioning the facilities in Dundee. How do you square that
circle with the football thing where the IOC are saying they want
one team to represent Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and
that team will either be England, Scotland, Wales or Northern
Ireland?
Mr Clegg: The IOC have not said
that. It is entirely within the gift of the British Olympic Association
to decide whether we enter a team of athletes for any of the 26
sports within the programme. Obviously there has been a historical
situation with football, though we have successfully entered previous
Olympic football competitions in decades gone. We are working
with the Football Association, because with the agreement of the
other home country associations they represent the interests of
football on the National Olympic Committee, to try and find a
solution to this problem. Could I say the BOA will not support
a position which in any way compromises the integrity of the home
country associations separate affiliation to FIFA. We have received
assurances from the President of FIFA, Sepp Blatter, that if we
do enter a British team for the Olympic Games it will not compromise
that integrity. Having achieved that degree of assurance I think
the onus is now on us and on the four home country football associations
to find a solution that is acceptable to everyone that will not
deprive talented young football players, from whichever part of
the United Kingdom they come from, competing in the world's greatest
event on our home shores here in London in 2012. There are hurdles
to overcome, I am confident we can overcome those and we can put
together a team which will be a credit to the whole of the United
Kingdom.
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