Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-139)
COUNCILLOR GRAHAM
GARVIE, MR
JOHN ZIMNY
AND MS
LINDSAY MACGREGOR
15 NOVEMBER 2005
Q120 Mr MacNeil: You were looking
at 20 years ago.
Mr Garvie: We were looking at
the scheme 20 years ago.
Q121 Mr MacNeil: Which games?
Mr Garvie: I cannot remember;
1990 something.
Q122 Mr MacNeil: 1992 or 1996.
Mr Garvie: Something like that.
Q123 David Mundell: But no country
as small as Scotland has ever hosted the Games, have they? Australia
had the lowest population, did it not, but huge land space?
Mr Garvie: Yes. It just did not
stack up. And both cities, with the then Secretary of State, we
decided to drop it; we could not do it. And I think that must
be an even worse situation now than it was then.
Q124 Mr MacNeil: Manchester had a
bid.
Mr Garvie: Yes.
Q125 David Mundell: Can I ask you
what you think might be an impediment to achieving your goals.
One of the issues, I suspect, might be finance. I do not know
if you were here in time to hear Scottish questions in the Chamber
today, but the issue of council tax and concerns about levels
of council tax was being raised, particularly in relation to Aberdeen
and indeed Inverclyde, which the Minister identified as the worst
run council in Scotland. In relation to what your goals are how
is the funding of local authorities going to impact on your ability
to achieve these goals?
Mr Garvie: This is a very big
subject about the funding of local authorities, which if we had
three days we could go into it, and about which I feel strongly.
I think most of local authorities' funding comes from the centre—I
think it is the 80-20 formula—which I think disempowers
and disenfranchises the true meaning of democracy at local level.
So you are on to a hobbyhorse of mine, Mr Mundell. I think the
control that councils have over their finances and tax-raising
powers is so minimised now as to become marginalised, although
politicians of all parties still make it a big deal. The fact
of the matter is that we only raise less than 20% now in actual
council tax income. We ought to be looking at how in fact we make
local authorities more accountable by going back to what it used
to be—I think it was 50-50 20 odd years ago. That for me
is the major issue about the viability of Councils and the responsibility
of members to the electorate. I know council tax is a big issue
but it is for me more a question of the structure of the financing
of local government that is the issue here.
Q126 David Mundell: So you are saying
that your ability to achieve the goals and priorities that you
set out is really dependent on how much money the Scottish Executive
gives you.
Mr Garvie: How much borrowing
we are allowed to do under the prudential formula, how much money
we can get under the PPP systems. We are of course creatures of
Parliament. The answer to that is, yes, we are dependent on the
decisions of the Scottish Parliament for how we are structured
and financed. You can add as much as you like to the council tax
to pay for all of that but that is a hugely contentious issue
which would not be acceptable to the people, so it has to be dealt
with at the centre because most of our money comes from there.
Q127 David Mundell: Basically what
you are saying is that any of the things that are to be done,
there would not be public acceptance for it to be funded through
council tax?
Mr Garvie: I do not think we could
fund some of the huge proposals that were being put forward solely
out of council tax; it has to be done either through borrowing
money, through PPP or special grants or Lottery funding or private
sponsorship, as other countries have done. But, no, council tax
will only take so much and any responsible politician wanting
to raise it above reasonable levels to do with income streams
I think would be irresponsible.
Q128 David Mundell: So in terms of
what additional support either the UK or government and the Scottish
Executive would provide, has COSLA identified what specifically
would be required either in terms of a financial package or borrowing
changes?
Mr Garvie: For what purpose?
Q129 David Mundell: To allow you
to achieve all the things that you set out?
Ms Macgregor: We have not yet
got to that point and we are at the early stages and clearly that
will have to be done across the board and again it will have to
be done in partnership because there are very few areas in this
where it would be entirely within the local authority's orbit.
However, there will be issues such as, hopefully, attracting training
teams and so on where an extra amount of investment might enable
that to go forward, and there needs to be some kind of audit of
those facilities where, if the only requirement were a little
additional accommodation, it could enable a training team to be
encouraged in, then that needs to be provided to make sure that
we can build on that possibility. But we are not at that point
yet. Certainly Glasgow and some individual authorities are at
the point of doing their own audits around facilities and how
they can team up, whether it is with universities, public schools,
all sorts of options in terms of delivering some of these elements,
but in terms of hard and fast figures at the moment that bit is
probably a little further down the line.
Q130 David Mundell: What you are
saying is that many of the goals and objectives could not really
be achieved on a business as usual basis.
Ms Macgregor: Our main strategy
is that we are hoping to widen participation and deliver athletes
for the Olympics and so on within our existing strategies and
indeed financial requirements. However, there will be additional
elements, in particular around the training camps, with probable
promotion of tourism because of the added value that that might
bring in, for which extra funding would probably add value and
make it even more successful than the existing strategy and resources
could deliver. But we are not trying to go out with the bounds
of existing plans and policies with the Olympic Games. However,
there will be some elements where individual local authorities
and partners will be seeking additional funding in order to be
able to deliver that quality of package that would just make the
difference.
Mr Garvie: Incentive grants from
the government of several tens of thousands of pounds to bring
a small or medium sized country training camp to Scotland or anywhere
in the UK would be the extra resource, an example of the kind
of resource that we would expect to come from outside the council
tax arrangement.
Q131 David Mundell: Which would be
particularly welcome in Peebles!
Mr Garvie: Absolutely, very nice
too!
Q132 David Mundell: Other than finance
is there anything else that you think is an impediment, that you
require the UK government or Scottish Executive to assist with,
other than the financial issues which you have covered?
Mr Garvie: The reality, as I said
earlier, Chairman, is that we are 400 miles away from the Games,
and that is where we are. We have to think what is possible. I
mean, if I were being completely outrageous a nice new bullet
train line from Scotland to London, which could be used afterwards
to connect promptly to Europe, at the cost of billions of pounds
would be very nice; to get to London in two and a half hours or
whatever would be terrific. That is probably unrealistic, but
that would be fantastic, would it not? Would that not be a tremendous
spin-off for generations to come for the Scottish economy and
for the Scottish people? But I presume you are talking within
a smaller financial frame than that, Mr Mundell?
Q133 David Mundell: It is an interesting
suggestion anyway. Are there other things within the ordinary
parameters, things that are blockages in other systems, planning
systems, inter-governmental working. Are there other things that
are going to need to be done?
Mr Garvie: I do not see that at
all, Chairman, from where I am sitting. I think we have a very
interesting consensus politically both in COSLA and VOCAL. We
have this new duty of community governance and people are working
together and I think it is very interesting. Maybe I am being
over optimistic, but I just think that there is a desire to move
forward together as a country in all sorts of areas to make things
better. I honestly do not see any blockages that are obvious to
me that would stop that. We want this to work for Scotland. In
all sorts of areas we want to do better, and I think since the
Parliament was established we actually have a situation that is
going to benefit us.
Q134 Gordon Banks: Last week we heard
how two Scottish companies have been successful in winning the
contracts to produce the bid document and to supply flags and
banners. There are, of course, some very significant contracts
that are going to be let in the run-up to the Games, not least
to build some of the new arenas that are going to be necessary
to support the Games. Is local government able to offer support
to Scottish firms to enable them to win such contracts, particularly
those in Scotland itself, or would there be a risk that any such
support could fall foul of the EU regulations?
Mr Garvie: I generally think that
the market takes care of itself and that good companies will get
the business. We had a very successful company in the Borders,
who got all the business for the British Lions, outfits, for example,
and other companies you have mentioned. I think the way that local
authorities can be economically active and of help is using all
the powers they have available to them when companies come at
them. To make a rent-free period to start with or easier entry
to new buildings, that kind of facilitating role. But generally
in my experience economically companies know where they are in
the market and know what they are about, and I think that to try
and find an agenda which is almost a false one, when we have very
lively companies and where they know very well what is coming
up with the Games, would be a mistake. I do not think we need
to get involved unless we are asked.
Q135 Gordon Banks: Would you feel
that with the way we implement some of the EU regulations, et
cetera, that we implement them in the most appropriate way? Other
countries tend not to implement them in such a transparent way
as we do, and do you think that we might fall behind the international
bidding structure that is going on? Because there is no doubt
about it that the international bidding in national contracts
will be used significantly in this example. So do you think maybe
by our playing by the rules sometimes that it is to our disadvantage?
Mr Zimny: Speaking as an officer
of a rural council and knowing the financial guidelines and restrictions
we have follow in governance rules and regulations, that are inescapable.
Also the rules and guidance as set out by Audit Scotland. So I
see the role of local authorities in being able to give assistance,
other than maybe some business start-up works or something of
that sort from an economic development standpoint, to be very
difficult or unachievable, because we certainly could not subsidise
a bid going in. I do not think that is part of local government's
remit, and I am sure that the auditors would have something to
say to us on that. I do know the restrictions, working on a day
to day basis and audit trails that have to be in place, and quite
rightly too—it is taxpayers' money. My council is the first
council to be audited under a new regime with Audit Scotland.
We did quite well, I am pleased to say, but it is very thorough
and certainly from the subsidising aspect of this I do not think
that is a real option at all for local authorities to consider.
Mr Garvie: And I think we should
play it by the rules.
Mr Zimny: It should be a level
playing field for all involved, and it should work to UK guidance,
so we should be able to make it a level playing field.
Gordon Banks: But that is only within
UK bidders that it becomes a level playing field.
Q136 Mr Walker: There is a broader
issue and that is the government, our government, the IOC, whoever
is charge, must encourage bids from SME[1]
businesses as well because I imagine that the company you were
talking about which did the Lions' shirts was an SME. So we have
to make sure that it is not just large multinationals but actually
SME, local domestic businesses getting to take part in this.
Mr Garvie: Lochcaron—and
Mr Mundell will know them—a very successful woollen manufacturer,
did their own thing. An enterprise company may assist but I think
that is true of most companies. They know their business; they
will be where the market is.
Mr Walker: It is just important, I think
we are agreed, that we make sure that there is the opportunity,
that there are contracts suited for SME bids.
Q137 Chairman: In the final paragraph
of your memorandum you set out 11 issues which you believe need
to be considered and resolved if Scotland is to benefit fully
from the 2012 Olympics. Who do you consider should play the lead
role in addressing these issues?
Ms Macgregor: It is clarity across
all of them of knowing who the lead is. I do not think there is
necessarily one lead across all those issues because some of them
are devolved issues that the Scottish Executive can take forward
and others are local government issues which local government
can pursue. I think the issue really is being clear right from
the start about mechanisms for inputting to the Great Britain
agenda, ways in which Scotland and England will interface on those
issues which are devolved, but additionally there will have to
be a corporate approach—ensuring that local government,
as we have already outlined, is a significant player across all
the issues that we hope Scotland will benefit from and ensuring
that local government has a voice into all those different mechanisms.
So I think that probably there is not any one lead although we
need to be really clear about where each of the leads are and
the routes in for local government to make sure that we can really
play the role to deliver the best Olympics for Scotland as well
as for the rest of the country.
Mr Garvie: Chairman, in parallel
with that the Minister has just asked me to chair a committee
for the rest of Scotland for the Commonwealth Games' bid for Glasgow.
So I think that it is very important that we actually learn from
the Olympic process and hopefully make a successful bid for Glasgow
and Scotland for 2014.
Q138 Chairman: I can understand that
you are all partners, local government, COSLA and the Scottish
Executive, but some organisation has to take the lead. In your
view which organisation should take the lead, local government,
Scottish Executive, or even the British Government?
Mr Garvie: There is a theory by
Etzione that talks about emergent leadership, and I think that
in any human situation what happens depends on who is at the table
and what they have to offer. I suspect it will be the very excellent
Minister, Patricia Ferguson, who will take that role on. If she
does not someone else will fill the gap.
Q139 Mr Walker: How confidant are
you that Glasgow will win the Commonwealth Games? I would love
to see it win the Commonwealth Games personally. Are you confident
that you can do it?
Mr Garvie: Yes, we are very confident.
But the Scots football team were as well! No, we are confident
and a lot of work is about to start—a huge amount of work.
1 Small and medium sized enterprise Back
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