Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-339)
MS PATRICIA
FERGUSON MSP AND
MR IAN
CAMPBELL
13 DECEMBER 2005
Q320 Chairman: Minister, 41% is a
huge difference in the participation rate. Do you have any targets
that the Scottish Executive has set where you will bridge this
gap so that this difference will be lowered?
Ms Ferguson: Sport 21 has a huge
range of targets, some of which are about the number of medals
we achieve and some of which are about the number of people who
are active full stop. If the Committee would like I can give you
a full list of those by correspondence, but we do have those kinds
of targets and we are working very hard to try and make sure that
we realise them.[1]
Q321 Chairman: Do you have any statistics
for ethnic minority communities and what is their participation
rate in sport in Scotland?
Ms Ferguson: I am not aware that
we do but we are very conscious—and it is something that
we have been discussing very recently—that we tend sometimes
more to have a focus on some of the ethnic communities that we
probably should not have, particularly as there is now evidence
coming through that there is a particular problem of heart disease
and diabetes, for example. Some of the research Glasgow University
has been doing would indicate that that becomes more of a problem
when people from Asia, particularly, come to live in Scotland
and we think that by taking very, very small targeted measures
it might be possible to actually make a big impact on those kind
of numbers. It is a piece of work that is at a relatively early
stage and one that I only learned about less than a week ago,
but which I intend to pursue with Glasgow University because it
is very interesting and quite worrying statistic, and one where
we want to see whether or not we can actually make a direct contribution
to eradicating if we can, certainly reduce it.
Q322 Chairman: I have met in the
last couple of weeks a number of young Asian people and I was
shocked when they told me that sometimes they cannot even afford
to buy a football or other equipment which you can buy for a relatively
cheap price and sometimes they do not have the money to pay for
the pitch. They also tell me is that the participation rate among
the ethnic minority community is almost nominal.
Ms Ferguson: That is obviously
very worrying. I think it is worth bearing in mind that we work
in partnership with our local authority colleagues and you know
from your own area, Chairman, that in Glasgow there are opportunities
through the sports facilities programme that they have for young
people to access free swimming, for example, and I know too that
as part of their latest cultural strategy they are looking to
enter other areas as well. So we do need to work with our colleagues
in local government and with sportscotland to make sure
that there are opportunities, but there are some really very,
very good schemes going on where those partnerships happen. Again,
I was talking earlier to Mr Alexander about the cross-cutting
nature of what we do and we also are looking for opportunities
through, for example, the justice portfolio to maximise the opportunity
there because we know that young people who are engaged in activity
and sport are less likely to be engaged in other activities that
none of us would want to see them engaged in. So we see that as
being very important and I have certainly seen for myself in the
south side of Glasgow projects where some 200 young men on a Friday
evening take part in football leagues on a very regular basis.
Those work very, very well and there is support there from both
the justice portfolio to strengthen money for particular projects
but also from the city council. So those kinds of partnerships
work very well and we have to maximise those opportunities; it
does not happen enough and we have to look for more opportunities
to do that.
Q323 David Mundell: Minister, I previously
indicated to you and I am very happy to say on the record what
a good job you have done in promoting public opinion in favour
of Scotland, and I think that was very helpful to the London bid,
but as we have seen in this Committee and elsewhere there are
still a group of people in Scotland who want to take every opportunity
to whinge about the fact that the Olympics are being held in London
and that this will somehow disadvantage Scotland. I want to ask
you firstly how you currently assess Scottish public opinion towards
the London Olympics and, secondly, how do you see the management
of that whinging element?
Ms Ferguson: I am not sure I want
to take responsibility for managing the whinging elements but
I do not think I have come across any diminution in support that
there is for the London Olympics and I think that since we launched
the bid for the Glasgow Commonwealth Games I have been very pleasantly
surprised by not just the level of support, because we expected
there to be a high level of support in Scotland for that bid,
but the level of enthusiasm that accompanies that. Partly that
is because people were inspired by the successful bid, but also
because people understand more and more the importance of events
like this in encouraging participation and activity. So I actually
think that there is a great deal of enthusiasm now about our ability
to host major events in this country and, as I am sure you are
aware, we set up EventScotland for precisely that purpose and
it is beginning to pay off, there is a whole range of international
events coming into the country. That can only be for the good,
but I do not see any diminution in the amount of support there
is for the London Olympics and I think as that gets closer the
enthusiasm will increase even more.
Q324 David Mundell: Clearly, it is
very important if we are to take advantage of the business opportunities
that we must promote ourselves as very positive and anybody who
is dissenting from that, I am sure you would agree, is unhelpful
to the overall cause.
Ms Ferguson: Indeed. If you are
coming from another country and you want to set up a training
camp, you want to go somewhere where you expect to have a friendly
welcome, so it is very important that we have the right attitude
towards these Games, and that is something that we will work hard
to make sure is still there by 2014.
Q325 David Mundell: Can I ask you
about whether the Scottish Executive is proposing any form of
audit in respect of the contractual, particularly construction,
capacity within Scotland during the lead-up to the Games, because
as I am sure you will confirm to us, the Scottish Executive does
have a very large scale construction programme with the M74 northern
extension, the Borders rail link, there are a number of private
projects such as the redevelopment of Ravenscraig, and one of
the issues which has come up in previous evidence sessions is
a concern over whether Scotland combining with the rest of the
United Kingdom in the build-up to the Olympics will actually have
the construction capacity to allow these business as usual projects
to carry on whilst the Olympic development is going ahead.
Ms Ferguson: If I am not mistaken
I think Scottish Enterprise are doing some work on that area at
the moment. I would have to obviously confirm that with them but
I believe they actually are. I know it is an area they have been
looking at for some time now because obviously with the passing
of the housing stock in Glasgow to the GHE there was a concern
about that very matter there, so it is something I think that
they have been looking to address and certainly with the number
of modern apprentices that are around at the moment, across all
skill bases, I suspect that that is something that they are working
quite hard to try to address. It is important that we remember
that these are often very skilled jobs but sometimes they are
also jobs that are for relatively small companies such as HiFli
Banners, for example, which is a relatively small company but
one that has had to grow because of the bid itself, because of
the work that they did in the bid. That must be good for the small-scale
companies that we have in Scotland—and I am sure you know
we have a great many of those—so there are opportunities
like that, they will not all be about the big construction contracts,
some of them will be about providing food in the Athletes Village,
for example. There is a whole range of skills that will be needed
there and I think it is important that we are looking to see that
we have all the skills, not just the construction ones.
Q326 David Mundell: In relation to
business generally, is the focus going to be on supporting existing
businesses to get involved or will more priority be given to encouraging
new businesses to come forward?
Ms Ferguson: We would want to
do both. Obviously, we do a great deal through Scottish Enterprise
at the moment to try and encourage new businesses to start up
and to give support to those businesses that are perhaps in fledgling
stages of their development, so I think it would be important
to do both as we go forward. There will be a great deal of opportunity
and we do want to maximise that for Scotland.
Q327 David Mundell: And for those
people who want to play a part outwith Scotland here in London,
how would you be supporting those businesses who want to not so
much conduct the business on home soil but actually be part of
the activities in and around the site?
Ms Ferguson: Obviously, it would
be open to any Scottish business to apply for a contract if they
think they have those skills and the expertise and there is the
opportunity to go for those contracts, and obviously we would
encourage them to do that. That is the way you build an international
profile and reputation and that can be of enormous importance
to you. I know of one example of a company in a relatively small
town in Australia which built the giant archway for the Sydney
Olympics and then was asked to do the same thing for Athens because
of the expertise they had, so there are opportunities there and
they do not necessarily just end with that Games. Obviously, as
we go forward, there will be other events going on around the
world and it would give Scottish companies and others a profile
that they might not otherwise get. I think that could be very
important for them too.
Q328 David Mundell: You have talked
primarily about your own responsibility in relation to participation
in sport but overall where do you think the balance lies in the
benefits to Scotland from the Olympics, business or participation
or tourism or something else?
Ms Ferguson: I think the opportunities
in all of those categories are immense, but we have to work to
make them happen, it will not just happen. Some of them might,
but by and large it will not happen without us putting in the
effort, so I think we have to maximise all the opportunities.
I think you are absolutely right about tourism, the potential
there is huge. People want to do something else in their down
time even when they are competing, but also a lot of friends and
family and supporters come, people come just for the spectacle
of the Games so there will be opportunities across the country
to maximise those opportunities too. Again, it is one that we
are looking at to make sure that we maximise those benefits too,
but I am not sure I would want to divide them up, they are all
huge benefits for us.
Q329 Danny Alexander: When Scottish
Enterprise came to see us they told us that "With spending
in the same ball-park as Sydney it is reasonable to assume a comparable
spend overall in the UK" and they went on to say "It
is also reasonable to assume that a significant proportion of
this spend will be made in Scotland." Do you share Scottish
Enterprise's optimism on this point?
Ms Ferguson: I think I do because
whilst business and that side of things is not my direct responsibility,
nor necessarily one I would profess to have a great deal of knowledge
about, I think I am confident that Scottish businesses are at
least as ambitious as businesses elsewhere and that they would
be in there battling to get these contracts. If we can give them
the kind of support that will make that possible for them, then
we will do that, so I think they have every opportunity to maximise
the opportunities to them individually.
Q330 Danny Alexander: Just going
back to the question I was asking earlier, in answer to that question
you just said this is not my area of responsibility, but it seems
to me to be very important that there is someone in Scotland who
is taking political responsibility for ensuring that the benefits
of the Olympics to Scotland are delivered. If this is an aspect
that is not your responsibility it is obviously someone else's
responsibility, so who has taken overall political responsibility
in Scotland for ensuring that the benefits available to Scotland
are delivered?
Ms Ferguson: One of the advantages
of being a relatively small country is that we can operate much
more closely together and we do not need to have the same kind
of barriers that perhaps apply elsewhere. As a cabinet and as
an Executive we work very, very closely together and we also work
very much on a cross-cutting basis so that we do regularly talk
with one another on a bilateral or whatever mechanism happens
to suit the particular issue to make sure that we are doing the
right things in whatever area it happens to be that we are discussing.
That applies equally to this opportunity as well, to the 2012
Olympics. Obviously, I have a great deal of input to make to it
and a great deal of responsibility for what happens, but I share
that responsibility with my colleagues, as you would expect, and
obviously I do discuss these matters with them too to make sure
that we are making the best possible opportunities available to
people in Scotland across the board. That applies equally to business
as it does to other areas.
Q331 Danny Alexander: On the question
of the Australian benefits versus the benefits here, have you
made any estimates of how many people who will visit London for
the Games will then come along and visit Scotland afterwards?
Ms Ferguson: We have not made
those kinds of estimates but what we have done is look at what
has happened elsewhere and we know that a great deal of those
who come into other places for the Games will take the opportunity
to travel around. Very few people who make that kind of journey—for
many of them it will be a long journey, it might be a once in
a lifetime journey—without taking the opportunity to look
further afield, and we are looking just now to see where we can
maximise those opportunities, which is why it is important that
VisitScotland is part of the mechanisms that we set up, because
obviously they will have a major role to play in that.
Danny Alexander: Thank you.
Q332 Mr MacDougall: The Committee
has been told about initiatives by EventScotland and sportscotland
in attracting international events and how they raise awareness
of Scotland as possible venue for events. What support is the
Executive giving to these initiatives?
Ms Ferguson: Maximum support.
We set up EventScotland with a view to being able to attract these
kinds of events and it is our intention that Scotland should be
a major event destination by 2015. We think we are well on track
to that and it is one that we attach a great deal of store by
and put a great deal of emphasis there as well.
Q333 Mr MacDougall: Just going on
from that, how will the Scottish Executive be involved in encouraging
more non-business or non-sporting tourists to Scotland—for
example, holidaymakers. There must be massive opportunities here
to spread the news about Scotland as a venue for holidaying. Does
the Scottish Executive enthusiastically embrace this and do they
have any plan in mind to address that opportunity?
Ms Ferguson: For a number of countries
that we might be talking about VisitBritain would actually be
the main operator there, but obviously VisitScotland works very
closely with VisitBritain and the chair of VisitScotland is on
the board of VisitBritain, so the relationships are very good
and they do work to make sure that every opportunity is taken
to advertise the UK in the case of VisitBritain and Scotland in
the case of VisitScotland. We know already that VisitScotland
is a brand, if you like, that is recognised around the world and
is increasingly becoming somewhere that people want to visit from
abroad. We want to maximise that opportunity. Obviously, we do
work all the time to encourage people to come to Scotland and
I would hope that not least we will do a specific work on the
Olympic Games but we also have the Scottish Year of Culture in
2007 and we have the Scottish Burns Shield coming in 2009, so
a great deal of activity is going on to focus attention on those,
and I would hope that people who come in 2007 or 2009 or come
for other sporting events that we have between now and 2014 for
that matter will realise that Scotland is a great place to be
and will take the opportunity to come back, or that some people
who perhaps have seen the advertising for those events and might
not come otherwise would come because they are coming to see the
Games. So we will be looking for every opportunity to do that.
Q334 Danny Alexander: One of the
other issues that we have been raising in this inquiry over the
past few weeks is the importance of trying to encourage attendance
at Olympic events. Obviously, most of those are going to be in
or around London, and particularly by people from disadvantaged
areas, either disadvantaged in terms of poverty or disadvantaged
in terms of rurality. Obviously, if you are wishing to go from
Inverness to see Olympic events, that is a whole lot more costly
and even if, as the Minister Richard Caborn assured us the other
week, there will be a certain number of cheap tickets available,
it will be much more expensive to go from Aviemore than it is
to go from Aylesbury, so what action is the Executive to ensure
that particularly young people in Scotland are not, as it were,
priced out of the market by the travel costs of getting to Olympic
events? Will you be doing specific things, will you be working
with the UK Government to ensure that there is help available
for people in such categories?
Ms Ferguson: It is an area that
we have discussed, I have discussed it with Julia Bracewell, and
what we are going to do next is that Julia is going to raise this
at the Nations and Regions Committee when it next meets in January.
We are very encouraged by the comments Richard Caborn made about
the possibilities there might be and obviously we are very keen
to work with both our colleagues at DCMS and also with the London
2012 Committee to make sure that we maximise the opportunities
that there are for the young people so that they do have the opportunity
to see what perhaps for them might be a once in a lifetime event.
We are very encouraged by what Richard Caborn said.
Q335 Danny Alexander: Obviously the
Scottish Executive has a certain amount of clout in this area,
being for example the franchise holder for the Scotrail franchise
and also First Group who hold that franchise are now winning franchises
across the UK. I dare say a company like that might well be susceptible
to a bit of encouragement from ministers to provide cheap tickets
for young people. Is that something that you and your ministerial
colleagues would consider doing, to ensure that there are cheap
travel alternatives for young people to actually get down there
and see the Olympics?
Ms Ferguson: The Games are obviously
still a long way off and we have to see what the best ways of
encouraging people to actually attend are, and we will do that.
I think we have to be quite careful, there is a difference between
having a quiet word in people's ears and other things, but we
will certainly look at that and see what we can do. We do work
very closely with the transport providers: for example, this year
additional trains were laid on during the Edinburgh Festival to
allow people to travel back to the west at a slightly later time
because it was recognised that that was good business sense, frankly,
for the train operators, but obviously it made sense in terms
of giving people the opportunity to participate, albeit as spectators,
at the Festival. The rail and other transport providers are very
well aware of the opportunities there will be for them, so it
will be something we look at as time goes on.
Q336 Danny Alexander: So we might
see special Olympic trains from Scotland to London, that is good
news. Obviously with the events taking place at Hampden Park,
the same issues also apply, people from Dundee or Inverness getting
to see the events that are taking place at Hampden Park, but that
is travel that is taking place entirely within Scotland. Is that
something that is also going to be on your agenda in terms of
ensuring again that people who are disadvantaged have access to
those events that are taking place here in Scotland?
Ms Ferguson: I think it is important
that we discuss it through the London 2012 Committee and obviously
we give it whatever support we can, because it may well be that
there are youngsters in the south of England who want to see a
particular match played at Hampden, for example, so we must not
just see it that way round, if you like. We will work with 2012
to make sure that we can maximise the opportunities for people
to be involved, not just in terms of being spectators but also
as volunteers because the opportunity of being a volunteer at
an event like the Olympics is again a once in a lifetime event
but also, perhaps, a life-changing event, the opportunity of being
involved, albeit perhaps in a small way, in organising one of
the world's greatest spectacles. We will be looking for those
kinds of opportunities too.
Q337 Chairman: Minister, you will
appreciate that the Committee members are very much concerned
that people from disadvantaged areas should feel that they are
participating in the 2012 Olympic Games and we are concerned at
how the Scottish Executive and local government and even private
enterprise are doing this. I had a meeting last week with Lloyds
TSB and I told them that we are looking for the private companies
as well to give some kind of support because obviously for the
people to come from Scotland to here there is going to be a lot
of travelling costs, the price of the ticket and accommodation
and it will be very difficult for under-privileged families to
come here and visit the Olympics. Are you taking a lead in discussing
that with your colleagues? I can understand that you work as a
team, but you will take up this as a matter of priority, how can
we help those people who are unable to come here to London and
other places and participate in those Games. Will there be a policy
there that you will be working on?
Ms Ferguson: As you say, it is
something we need to discuss with London 2012 to see the best
way of taking that agenda forward, but it is one that we are very
interested in pursuing. I have to say I would also want to be
looking to have opportunities in those communities to raise the
profile of the Olympic Games and of the benefits of sporting participation.
So I would hope that there will be a programme that runs in tandem
with the Olympics that is about participating in your own area,
that is not about going to London necessarily but is about you
doing something in your own area, something more than watching,
actually having some kind of link and some kind of activity involved
in it. So we are looking to see what kind of programme that might
be but there will also be cultural opportunities around the Games
too and we want to make sure that Scotland maximises that opportunity
as well; for some young people that might be a more attractive
element of it, even with the sporting element not everyone shares
our enthusiasm for sport. We need to make sure that we are doing
both of those things and doing them equally well.
Q338 Chairman: How will the Executive
ensure that Scottish interests are best served by the Olympic
Delivery Authority?
Ms Ferguson: As you know, Chairman,
the London Organising Committee have set up a Nations and Regions
Committee which has had one meeting and is about to have a second
in January, and Julia Bracewell as I said earlier, the chair of
sportscotland, is our representative on that committee.
Obviously, we have other conversations with the London 2012 Committee
as well, not least because we want to learn from them to make
sure we maximise the benefit of their experience when we take
forward the Commonwealth Games bid for Glasgow. So we do have
a great deal of dialogue with them and also with our colleagues
at DCMS to make sure that Scotland's flag is flying and they know
that there are opportunities for the Olympics in Scotland as well
as opportunities for Scots and Scottish companies through the
Olympics.
Q339 Chairman: Will the ODA have
a Scottish voice on it and will they decide where the funding
destined for Scotland will eventually go? Who will make that decision,
is it the ODA?
Ms Ferguson: The money allocated
for Scotland? I am not sure what money that would be, sorry.
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