Select Committee on Scottish Affairs Fourth Report


2   The Westminster perspective

9. During our inquiry, we held four evidence sessions, all during March 2006; one in Edinburgh and three in Westminster. In Edinburgh, to start off the inquiry, we took evidence from Mr Donald Gorrie MSP, the Convener, Ms Karen Gillon MSP, the Deputy Convener, Mr Alex Johnstone MSP, and Mr Andrew Mylne, the Committee Clerk, of the Procedures Committee of the Scottish Parliament; at Westminster, we took evidence from Ms Margaret Curran MSP, Minister for Parliamentary Business, Mr Murray Sinclair, Head, Constitution and Parliamentary Secretariat, and Mr Paul Allen, Head, Constitutional Policy Unit, the Scottish Executive and from Mr David Cairns MP, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, Dr Jim Wildgoose, the Head of Scotland Office, and Mr Glenn Preston, Head of the Scotland Office's Constitutional Branch; from Mr Roger Sands, the Clerk of the House of Commons, and Mr Frank Cranmer, Clerk of Bills, House of Commons; and from Mr Barry K Winetrobe, Reader in Law, Napier University.[13] In addition to written submissions from the witnesses above, we also received a memorandum from the Clerk of the Parliaments.[14] We wish to place on record our thanks to all those who gave evidence during the inquiry.

10. We would also wish to record our gratitude to the staff at Edinburgh City Chambers, who facilitated our first set of formal evidence held outside Westminster since the 2005 General Election, and to the Members and the members of staff of the Scottish Parliament we met during our visit to Holyrood immediately following our evidence session; particular thanks go to Trish Godman MSP, the Convener, and her colleagues on the Conveners' Group for hosting a working lunch for us when we were able to discuss informally numerous matters of mutual concern.

11. As we stated in paragraph 4 above, in its report, the Scottish Parliament's Procedures Committee made some suggestions as to how we at Westminster could change our own procedures in order to improve communication between the two Parliaments. We were pleased to have confirmation from the Clerk of the House that there were no procedural reasons why the Procedures Committee's proposals could not be adopted at Westminster,[15] and that the view of Clerk of the Parliaments would not be radically different from his own.[16]

12. Mr Barry Winetrobe, in his written submission, expressed a view which summed up the situation, and with which we concur:

"…under devolution, relations between the UK's parliaments and assemblies should be enhanced. The operation of the Convention is an instance of devolution business which formally was said to be a matter between the two parliaments, but which, in practice, has been dominated and driven by the two executives." [17]

13. This Report, therefore, should be taken as our attempt to redress this situation. We endorse all the suggestions to the changes in Westminster's procedures proposed by the Procedures Committee; in response to their specific proposals, we recommend:

the introduction of a formal process whereby the Scottish Parliament notifies Westminster when a Sewel motion had been passed;

that any communication from the Scottish Parliament that it had passed a Sewel motion is, at the appropriate time, "tagged" on the Order Paper, and the text of the resolution made available in the Vote Office; and

that all Explanatory Notes to Bills are explicit about which part or parts of the United Kingdom a Bill will affect, and could, therefore, trigger the Sewel Convention.

14. All our recommendations, and other conclusions we have reached during the inquiry, are set out in detail in the paragraphs below, as are our views on how the House should implement those recommendations.

Communicating the Scottish Parliament's view

15. The first issue we had to address was, what would be the most appropriate way that Holyrood could advise Westminster that it had passed a Sewel motion? In his written submission the Clerk of the House stated:

"it might be thought, for example, that a letter from the Clerk of the Scottish Parliament to the Clerk of the Parliaments and myself might suffice, rather than involving our respective presiding officers. However, whatever method of communication is adopted, it would be simple matter to note on the Order Paper against the bill in question the fact that the Scottish Parliament had agreed a Sewel Resolution in respect of it and to make the text of the resolution available to Members. Alternatively, as suggested in the Scotland Office memorandum, responsibility for making the text of the resolution available might rest with the Department in charge of the bill rather than with the House authorities." [18]

16. Mr Sands expanded on this during his oral evidence, saying:

"The Presiding Officer route imparts a greater degree of formality, which might be seen to be attractive, but it does inevitably impose an extra link in the chain because the necessary information has got to be conveyed to the right office at Edinburgh, and then when it gets down to the Speaker's Office here conveyed to [the Public Bill] office for action to be taken. If time were tight, I suspect that in the end it would be found it would be better to do it official to official."[19]

17. We agree, and see no need for that extra link in the chain. We recommend the introduction of a formal process whereby the Scottish Parliament notifies Westminster when a Sewel motion had been passed. Although we cannot, of course, insist on how the Scottish Parliament communicates its decisions to us, we trust that the Presiding Officer and the Clerk of the Scottish Parliament will note our view that the better way of letting the House of Commons and the House of Lords know that Holyrood had passed a Sewel motion would be for the Clerk of the Scottish Parliament to advise the Clerk of the House and the Clerk of the Parliaments that such a motion had been passed, rather than for the Presiding Officer to contact the Speaker and the Lord Chancellor.

"Tagging" of relevant Bills

18. The next matter we considered was, once Holyrood had alerted Westminster that a Sewel motion had been passed, how was this best brought to the attention of Members?

19. When we asked the Clerk of the House whether it would be better if the House itself, rather than the Government, took on the duty of advising its Members that the Scottish Parliament had passed a Sewel motion, his response was:

"I think it would be more appropriate because the passing of a Sewel resolution is a parliamentary action by the Scottish Parliament and therefore it is right that that should be communicated parliament to parliament and dealt with in that way."[20]

20. We recommend that, following a communication from the Scottish Parliament that it had passed a Sewel motion, at the appropriate time a "tag" is placed on the Order Paper by the relevant House authority, alerting Members that the Scottish Parliament had agreed a Sewel motion in respect of a Bill, and that the text of the resolution is made available in the Vote Office.

Improved Explanatory Notes

21. As well as the situation mentioned in paragraph 5 above, that MPs were sometimes unaware that a Sewel motion had been passed by Holyrood, a more fundamental problem is that it is not always immediately apparent whether or not a Bill introduced at Westminster would actually apply to Scotland, and therefore could initiate a Sewel motion. One way of removing this lack of clarity would be to ensure that a Bill's Explanatory Notes included unambiguous information about which parts of the UK the Bill applied to. As the Scotland Office stated in its written evidence:

"The Government requires Bill teams to include in the Territorial Extent section of a Bill's Explanatory Notes a description of how a Bill applies to Scotland and whether or not it triggers the Sewel Convention. For example, the Explanatory Notes to the Equality Bill[21] currently before Parliament include this information. However, the Government recognises that sometimes this information is not as clear as it should be and will endeavour to make sure future Explanatory Notes are explicit about Sewel issues."[22]

22. David Cairns MP, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland expanded on this when he gave oral evidence:

"…I think it is important to get right the Explanatory Memorandum published at the time the Bill is published, which would indicate the area that would be covered by a Sewel motion. I would concede here we do not always get that right. There are some very good examples: the Equality Act, which has just gone through, is a very good example of where it was listed and how it would apply; in others there has just been either inadequate information or inconsistent information."[23]

23. During his evidence, the Clerk of the House agreed that notes to identify devolved provisions in Bills could be patchy, and suggested:

"It could be standardised with advantage. When it is done well, it is fine. There is a section in the explanatory notes on the current Police and Justice Bill with some such heading as "Territorial Extent",[24] and it sets out provisions that may apply to Scotland very clearly. If that practice were followed in a consistent way, the House would have all the information it would reasonably want about the Bill as introduced."[25]

24. We support fully the Government in its attempts to ensure that all Explanatory Notes are explicit about which part or parts of the United Kingdom a Bill will affect, and could, therefore, trigger the Sewel Convention, and we recommend that the Explanatory Notes to the Equality Bill [Lords] and to the Police and Justice Bill be taken by Bill teams in all Departments as exemplars.

25. We believe, however, that more could be done to alert Members of the House to a Bill which could trigger Sewel even before that Bill was formally presented to the House and its Explanatory Notes available. After the Queen's Speech, the Secretary of State currently makes a brief Written Ministerial Statement stating that a list of Bills which would affect Scotland is available in the House of Commons Library.[26] Although helpful, we consider that it could be more so, as the Clerk of the House rightly stated it is "a matter of some constitutional significance".[27]

26. We were also concerned that members of the media and the public who had an interest in Scottish matters might not realise that a particular Bill affected Scotland and, even if they did, might not appreciate how they could access this information. During his evidence, Mr Barry Winetrobe stated:

"I am certainly in favour of anything that makes information available to the wider public. As somebody who used to work in the Library, the placing in the Library system is not a method of publication, although most things that are like that would be published in some other way. It would be on somebody or other's website. Yes, I think there are ways that make it more transparent, more open to the public. In an ideal world, perhaps you would have an oral statement by the Scottish Secretary about which he could be questioned by yourselves immediately after the Queen's Speech in the same way as for other announcements made about details of bills by other Ministers or after the Budget."[28]

27. We were attracted by the idea of the Secretary of State making an oral statement, on which he could be questioned, in the House following the Queen's Speech, although, should our other recommendations be accepted, this may not be necessary. We therefore recommend that, instead of a simple statement saying such a list is available in the Library, a list of those Bills which affect Scotland is included in the Official Report with the Secretary of State for Scotland's Written Ministerial Statement following the Queen's Speech, and that the list summarises each Bill's implications for Scotland.

Private Members' Bills

28. Preceding paragraphs dealt with Government Bills, but we were also conscious of how the House dealt with a Private Members' Bill which affected Scotland, thereby triggering Sewel. In its written submission, the Scotland Office states:

"As the devolution guidance note…. makes clear…the same procedures should be followed for private member's Bills supported by the Government as apply to Government Bills. The Government will not support a private members' Bill which includes provisions subject to the Convention without agreeing with the Scottish Executive that it will seek the consent of the Scottish Parliament to the inclusion of those provisions in the Bill."[29]

29. When David Cairns appeared before the Committee, he set out the Government's policy as being:

"Essentially, the Government's position is quite clear on this: it is up to private Members to bring forward whatever they want to in a Private Member's Bill, it is not up to the Government to tell them what they should do."[30]

30. And he confirmed that:

"The Government is very clear that we will not support any Private Member's Bill which triggers Sewel unless all of the other stages have been gone through in relation to getting the consent of the Scottish Parliament. It is not up to the Government to tell private Members how they should go about introducing their own legislation."[31]

31. During oral evidence, Mr Frank Cranmer, Clerk of Bills in the House of Commons, explained the procedure the Public Bill Office employs when dealing with Private Members' Bills:

"When I look at the bill drafted for the first time, one of the things that I try and bear in mind always is whether, if it applies to Scotland - though actually not many of them do - it engages devolved powers. If it appears to engage devolved powers we draw this to the attention of the Member concerned. The Bill quite often goes through a long drafting stage; and when it comes to fruition, and when it is presented and printed, we let the legislation team in the Scottish Parliament know so that they can pick it up. It is an entirely informal arrangement but it is an informal arrangement that is based on an exchange of letters between myself and …. the Clerk in charge at the time, saying that we would use our best endeavours to keep them informed. All I can say, Chairman, is that we have not had any complaints; the system seems to work well at an informal level."[32]

32. We commend the Public Bill Office for its Information Leaflet[33] dealing with the preparation of Private Members' Bills, as it specifically draws Members' attention to the situation that:

"A decision will need to be reached about the territorial extent of a Bill….The Government has stated that it would be likely to oppose a Private Members' Bill seeking to alter the law on devolved subjects in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish Parliament."[34]

33. We consider that the current informal procedures for how the House deals with those Private Members' Bills which might apply to matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament are appropriate and work well, and we do not, therefore, recommend any change to those arrangements.


13   See pp Ev 1-57. Back

14   For list of written submissions received, see p 20. Back

15   Q123. Back

16   Q136. Back

17   Ev 47, para 2. Back

18   Ev 40, para 8. Back

19   Q127. Back

20   Q125. Back

21   See Annex, p18. Back

22   Ev 28, para 29 (a). Back

23   Q92. Back

24   See Annex, p18. Back

25   Q122. Back

26   Q129. Back

27   IbidBack

28   Q155. Back

29   Ev 27, para 28. Back

30   Q94. Back

31   IbidBack

32   Q118. Back

33   Preparing Private Members' Bills: A Short Guide for Members, March 2006. Back

34   IbidBack


 
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