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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 658-ii

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

SCOTTISH AFFAIRS COMMITTEE

 

 

 

THE POTENTIAL BENEFITS FOR SCOTLAND OF THE 2012 OLYMPICS

 

COUNCILLOR GRAHAM GARVIE, MR JOHN ZIMNY

and MS LINDSAY MACGREGOR

Evidence heard in Public Questions 70 - 142

 

 

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Oral Evidence

Taken before the Scottish Affairs Committee

on Tuesday 15 November 2005

Members present

Mr Mohammad Sarwar, Chairman

Gordon Banks

Ms Katy Clark

Mr John MacDougall

Mr Jim McGovern

Mr Angus MacNeil

David Mundell

Mr Charles Walker

________________

Memorandum submitted by Convention of Scottish Local Authorities

 

Examination of Witnesses

 

Witnesses: Councillor Graham Garvie, COSLA Arts and Leisure Spokesperson, Mr John Zimny, Director of Recreation Services, Angus Council and Ms Lindsay Macgregor, Policy Manager, Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, examined.

Q70 Chairman: I would like to welcome you to this meeting of the Scottish Affairs Committee and our inquiry into the potential benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics. Can you please, first of all, introduce yourselves?

Mr Garvie: Thank you, Chairman. First of all, we are very pleased to be here and thank you for the invitation. My name is Graham Garvie and I am a councillor in the Scottish Borders and I am the COSLA Spokesperson on Sport and the Arts. On my left is John Zimny, who has been an Executive Member for over ten years of VOCAL, which is the Voice of Culture, Arts and Leisure Services, and is also a Director of Leisure Services for Angus Council. On my right is Lindsay Macgregor, who is the Senior Policy Manager in the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

Q71 Chairman: Before we ask detailed questions do you want to make an opening statement?

Mr Garvie: No, sir, I think we are happy to discuss the issues with you and hopefully not have too long a session for you.

Q72 Chairman: The Committee is looking into the potential benefits for Scotland of the 2012 Olympics. From a local government perspective what do you see as the priorities in getting the best deal for Scotland, and what do you see as the main obstacles to achieving those priorities?

Mr Garvie: Like you, Chairman, we are very keen to involve the Scottish people in the wonderful Olympic Games that London is going to have. So it is not so much for local authorities but for the people that we all represent throughout Scotland that we are interested in getting a bit of the action. We think this is a very good opportunity to do so. As to engagement with the Games Committee, that is really a matter out of our hands, but we could rehearse with you - and you have one of our papers which has been given to you - the kind of background and structures we have in place of what we can deliver for the people of Scotland in regard to the Olympic Games. We can be very specific about that, but in general terms we are very keen to be engaged in the process, working through the Olympic Games Committee and also the Scottish Executive, through the Minister and her committees.

Q73 Mr MacDougall: In paragraphs 5.0 and 6.0 of your memorandum you refer to the possible benefits for Scotland due to increased tourism and economic growth. Do you think that the Scottish Football Association's decision not to participate in a GB team will have an adverse effect on the potential benefits for Scotland, either by few teams basing their training camps in Scotland, by fewer visitors coming to Scotland, or indeed by other measures that might be taken?

Mr Garvie: I hope not. That decision has now been made and I think we have to move forward. I understand the reasons behind it and I think it is a pity, but I hope that in place of soccer, if that is not to be at Hampden Park for one of the quarter finals, we might find another event that might be considered to be located in Scotland: for example, in the Largs area, which has been decided against for the moment, but in view of the football decision I think they might revisit that with the organising committee. So we move on from that. The decision seems to be made now and I think we should put that behind us and move on to the next stage.

Q74 Mr MacDougall: Do you think there is a danger - and I hear what you are saying - that the SFA decision could result in Scotland actually losing events, and therefore revenue, for example, by the re-siting of the opening match of the football tournament to, say, the City of Manchester Stadium and the quarter final scheduled for Hampden Park being moved, for example, because the spirit and intention, if you like, of the team has been broken and all conditions, if you like, are there to be reconsidered. Is there not a possibility of that, or do you believe that that will not happen?

Mr Garvie: I think the people who put the bid in, who are running the games are big enough to realise that this is a decision made by one particular sport in Scotland and they will put that behind them. Certainly if I was in their position I would say, "That is a pity, I do not agree with it." But it is not the whole of Scotland that we speak for; let us move forward and see what can be given to Scotland in place of that. I really do not think that if they are big people, which I believe them to be, that they would hold that against Scotland, and I would be surprised and disappointed if that happened.

Mr Zimny: Chairman, just to echo what Graham is saying there, I think it is very important that we separate out the aspect of the SFA decision not to participate in the British football team, from actually hosting the event at Hampden Park in Glasgow. I think you have to separate the two out. Certainly from a COSLA level we are disappointed - and also personally disappointed - about that decision. That is a decision that any sporting organisation has to meet, but we have to look at it from a very careful perspective of what is best for Scotland and to keep promoting Scotland very positively and proactively. I think it would be excellent still if we could have the Hampden event to open the 2012 Olympics because it would put Scotland right on the map. We should separate out the facility, use and development from the SFA. I know it is a football stadium that happens to be the SFA, but if their opening event was at Murrayfield the SFA decision would not be in question. The question of whether it is right or wrong for the ability of the Scottish team, they would not put into jeopardy the use of the facility. So we have to keep pushing very hard to keep the Hampden event very much as the opening event for the Olympic Games and proactively sell Scotland on that basis and be part of this excellent venture, because I think to lose the Hampden event it would be very difficult to get any event back into Scotland. That is the one we have and hopefully we will keep it, and I do not think we will get a like for like replacement.

Q75 Mr MacDougall: Other Members may want to come on this, but would you not agree with me that it is more probable that something could happen from that position rather than it might have been if the position had been different, because what we are actually saying is that the football authorities who are linked to Scotland are saying, "We do not want any part of it, although we still expect the benefits that come out of it." I hear the point that is being made and I genuinely hope, along with you, that that attitude is not adopted.

Mr Zimny: I think it is very important to separate out the football team and the composition of that team as a UK team as opposed to a home country team in its own right. We have to separate that out and hopefully the SFA will make that division as well as us. That is our stance as well as far as the football team is concerned. As far as Hampden, we still welcome the participation of Hampden in the Olympic Games.

Q76 Mr MacNeil: Do you think that the initial reasons for having one of the earliest games at Hampden, if not the first game, of the football part of the Olympic Games, was to in some way make the games relevant to Scotland? We know that the taxpayers in Scotland, as throughout the United Kingdom, will be contributing to the Olympic Games and that if the British Olympic Committee - who told us, incidentally, last week, that fixtures and places to be used in the Olympics were set in stone - do you think the British Olympic Association will be making the Games less relevant to Scotland? Taking up your point there, Mr Zimny, the fact is that the first game at Hampden could be absolutely nothing to do with the GB team and Northern Ireland team, but it could be an Asian team playing a South American team. Is the British Olympics Association making the Games less relevant to Scotland if they decide to take anything away from Hampden in what looks like a fit of pique?

Mr Garvie: Chair, as I said before, I think we should move on from this. The decision has been made and I think that we should be constructive as to what we can achieve for the people of Scotland. We are who we are and I do not wish to comment on decisions made by other bodies; whatever they made them for, that is their affair. We are here to look at what we can achieve for Scotland in the light of the present situation.

Q77 Mr MacNeil: Would COSLA then consider the games to be more or less relevant to Scotland, given that the game happens at Hampden, as was first suggested, or not?

Mr Garvie: I think they are relevant to the whole world. In the scheme of things, for the Olympics to come to Britain is fantastic, and because of a football decision made over one particular stadium I do not think that is relevant to the excitement of having the world's best athletes and millions of people coming to our country to celebrate this great international event - I just do not see it that way, Mr MacNeil.

Q78 Mr MacNeil: Could I take it then that COSLA are relaxed if the first game is away from Scotland, so long as it is happening somewhere for the whole world?

Mr Garvie: On that particular issue, yes, but let us look at something else.

Q79 Mr MacNeil: You are relaxed about leaving Hampden?

Mr Garvie: I am relaxed about most things regarding sport, yes. If you tighten up on any sport, you will lose, that is my advice to you.

Q80 Gordon Banks: I want to speak a little about the football side and then move on to a wider issue that has been talked about, about Scotland's participation. Ironically, the last time that GB won the Olympic football title was in 1908 when the Olympics were held in London - although we have competed in group stages in 1960 and the preliminaries in 1972. There was a viewpoint launched by Jack McConnell that the home nation championships should be re-launched and the winner should be the team that represents Great Britain and Northern Ireland in the Olympic Games. First of all, do you have a comment on that, but do you also not think that the SFA's decision - and I understand what you are saying, that it is an external body to yourselves, but we are looking for your opinion of that decision - had been taken seven years before the Games, and we had the BOC sitting here last week who are saying that decisions on training camps will not even be taken until two years before the Games. So we are ruling ourselves out at a very, very early stage. Would you not urge the SFA to reconsider that decision? And I have another supplementary question which I would like to come on to, if you could answer that question.

Mr Garvie: No, I would not.

Q81 Gordon Banks: What do you think about the home nations scenario?

Mr Garvie: Mr McConnell is entitled to his view.

Q82 Gordon Banks: What is your opinion on that?

Mr Garvie: I am not going to comment on that, Chairman, with respect. I have stated my position, we are relaxed about the decision, it is made by another body and there are many other sports and opportunities in a whole range of areas of benefit to the Scottish people.

Q83 Gordon Banks: COSLA do not have an opinion on that, okay.

Mr Garvie: I am the spokesperson; I have not consulted with all of my colleagues. I do not have an opinion.

Q84 Gordon Banks: We are trying to get COSLA's opinion here today. On a wider scale there has been an issue, some movement to promote a separate Scottish team in the Games and not a GB, Northern Ireland team. Does COSLA agree with the comments made by Shirley Robertson here last week that the best possible opportunity for Scotland and for Scottish athletes to represent Scotland is as part of a GB team?

Mr Garvie: These Games are international Games amongst competing athletes from nation states. We are a Great Britain team in the Olympic Games, as I understand it.

Gordon Banks: That is fine, I just wanted to know your opinion on that. That is grand. I share your views totally.

Q85 Mr MacNeil: Would the same scenario hold true for the Commonwealth Games?

Mr Garvie: It is different, is it not? I do not know the rules, I have not gone into that, but I think it is different for the Commonwealth Games, as I understand it; there are different rules for participating nations.

Q86 Mr Walker: If Scotland does not get football matches, which I sincerely hope it does, is there any potential for any other sport, do you feel, to go to Scotland?

Mr Garvie: I mentioned the sailing for Largs. We were quite disappointed that Scotland lost out to the south of England on that one, and we understand the good and valid reasons for that. But we would like that to be revisited, and it is interesting when looking at the Beijing Games, they are changing venues within quite a short period before the Games take place. Someone said they are set in tablets of stone, but I do not think they are. If we put a strong enough case - for example, sailing is one that comes to mind - then we could press the Olympic Committee to look at that again, or other sports that we could examine. So I think we can step forward from this and look as to how we could actually find some other sport to be located in Scotland, and I do not think that is a dead duck.

Q87 Mr MacNeil: There would seem to be a greater guarantee of wind in Largs than there would be in Weymouth!

Mr Garvie: Yes; I do not know.

Q88 Ms Clark: In your memorandum you state that Scottish Local Authorities invest some £200 million every year in sport and contribute about £140 million to economic development. Could you remind the Committee how much both the UK Government and also the Scottish Executive make available for both sport and for economic development?

Mr Garvie: We do not have that information. I am sorry; perhaps we should have had that information. We do not know it.

Q89 Ms Clark: That is fine, that is not a problem. Do you see yourselves as a major contributor when you compare yourself with the Scottish Executive and with National Government?

Mr Garvie: Yes, we do, not only from a factual position of the figures that we can give to you, the millions of pounds that we spend every year, but also the fact that we are very close to the people. Not to say that MSPs and MPs are not, but there are more of us, there are nearly 1200 councillors in Scotland, and I think we are in touch with the needs of the people and are able to direct money perhaps in more meaningful ways sometimes, complementary to national initiatives as well, I have to say - we work well together. I think our role is different but crucially important.

Ms Macgregor: I think it is fair to say that local government is a significant player in both tourism and sport and culture more generally in terms of its contribution financially, certainly comparable with the Scottish Arts Council, sportscotland and other organisations at Executive level who are making financial contributions. Certainly in terms of the infrastructure, the benefits of having the range of services available within local authorities, the actual contribution to tourism behind the scenes as well as upfront is very significant, so local government really is well placed in that in coordinating the enabling role at the moment in provision across the board and joining up and enabling partners to contribute as well.

Mr Garvie: I can give you an example, Mr Chairman, of a whole range of initiatives that are currently ongoing: Sport 21, Sport in the Community and major sporting events that local authorities undertake under their statutory duty to do so. So, whatever you wish me to answer.

Q90 Gordon Banks: You refer in your submission about the significant role played by local authorities in promoting tourism. How are local authorities planning to promote Scotland to encourage even more tourists to visit the country during the Olympics and how are you going to do that in relationship with the partner organisations you mentioned in paragraph 6.1 of your submission?

Mr Garvie: That is a very interesting question because that is an agenda that still has to be addressed, particularly as we are going through a major change in the delivery of tourism - if that is the right expression - with the rearrangement of Visit Scotland and Visit Local Areas. So, in a way, local authorities are becoming a junior partner whereas before, under all the Tourist Boards, they were a much more upfront partner. But I hope that to be a developing situation under a new committee which has been set up, I gather, by the Minister, Patricia Ferguson, to bring the major players together - COSLA, Visit Scotland and all the other players in the tourism business. It is a huge opportunity for us - a huge opportunity - but I think that the arrangement is still to be put in place and we will certainly want to be at the table to put in our input and add value to that progress.

Mr Zimny: I do not have the exact proportion but a substantial majority of tourism facilities in Scotland are owned and managed by the local authorities - I think it is National Trust Scotland - and after that in the hierarchy over 50 per cent are owned and managed. So a major player in the tourism and cultural market place. Can I go back to something that you raised and Graham touched on with regard to Sport 21 and how we are developing in Scotland? A series of ministerial meetings ended with the publication of Sport 21 in 2002/3, and the first phase of it runs up to 2007, although the whole programme is to 2020. We have had informal discussions with both the Scottish Executive and Sport Scotland, VOCAL and COSLA to look at the re-writing of the start in 2006, and we reached 2007. Obviously the Olympics and hopefully the Commonwealth Games coming to Scotland were major factors in how we are going to develop Sport 21 in open partnership. It is not Sport Scotland versus local government versus private sectors, it is very much everyone working very closely together. And there have been major successes in the Scottish National Institute of Sport and in regional sports academies. In my own area the Tayside and Fife one is a fantastic success in training and bringing out athletes, and that is with funding from an open partnership between Dundee, Angus and Perth and Fife councils all contributing, along with the universities in Dundee and along with sportscotland, and sportscotland is using that as a pilot as an example of good practice. We need to build on the success of these institutes for generating athletes for 2012 and 2014. So as an infrastructure in Scotland it is working, it is starting to work and when they do the re-writing for the 2007 publication, which will take us up to the Olympics, it is to set the scene so that Scotland is working together. We have started with the Active Schools Programmes, mentioned here, getting youngsters in schools involved in physical activity in sport, and that again is making major strides into physical and mental well-being of all our school children, and we are making an alliance between the schools now and the sports clubs very much at local government and local level, and with the private sector, to keep youngsters involved with sport, particularly young girls dropping out at the age of 12 and 13. We want to keep young people involved in sport with the benefit for health in later life, and with the carrot of the Olympic Games coming to the UK and hopefully a major event still on the cards coming to Scotland it gives us, certainly local government officers, an opportunity to sell very clear targets, very clear goals. They may not participate in the Olympics but they can get the train down, they can fly down to London and see their heroes and the various athletics and the sports that participate. It is a marvellous opportunity for young people, and we have the foundations now being firmly put in place across Scotland and we must build on that. I would be very disappointed indeed if the Olympic Organising Committee withdrew a major event from Scotland, and I hope that does not happen because I think it would be a disincentive. We would get over it, we would get over it quite quickly, I think, but I think it would be negative for Scotland. I think it would be a sad day for Scotland, personally; that is a personal view and not a COSLA view, I hasten to add. I think they have to encourage the Olympic Committee to speak to us to keep an event in Scotland because it is London's Games, yes, but it is a UK event overall. Taking up Mr MacNeil's point, if we do not get the sport there are still the cultural aspects that we can do, the cultural events based around what is going to happen in four years when we get to the Olympics and then on to the Commonwealth Games in 2014. So there is a whole cultural and tourism aspect that Scotland has to offer. It is not just about sport, it is a whole package and I think it is a very, very exciting package that we could sell and can sell positively, and through the National Committee that Julia Bracewell sits on as a Scottish representative there is a plan to establish a Scottish Committee Forum to bring in local government and the various quangos and Scottish Executive, Visit Scotland, Event Scotland, so that we all know what we are doing and feed that into the Olympic Organising Committee. As far as VOCAL is concerned, I see the ball firmly coming into my court and we have to play a part and we are up for it; we just need the opportunity to be invited to sit at a table.

Mr Garvie: Chairman, may I come back to Mr Banks' point on tourism? I think there is a huge opportunity, pre and post Olympics, to say to the world that this is a fantastic event coming to Britain. Yes, come to London but we have so much to offer you - and indeed to other parts of the UK - particularly in Scotland, and come for a holiday for a week before or ten days afterwards. That is a huge opportunity which I think should be explored by the Committees that are looking at these things under the government in Scotland.

Q91 Gordon Banks: I would agree with you and I think that the recent G8 Summit in Scotland where there was worldwide exposure of my constituency certainly did us no harm, so something should be worked on. But when you sit around this table with the other bodies that are going to develop this strategy for attracting tourism to Scotland, do you see a logical argument emanating from that body that we should maybe be focused on who we try to attract, and so we go to maybe North American countries and Australasian countries where there are some degree or roots back to Scotland? And do you think that is likely to give us more fruit than just casting a wide net willy-nilly trying to catch everybody or a section of everybody?

Mr Garvie: You are always better to build in any situation in life on the strengths that you have, and I think that is a very interesting idea. But I guess if I were at the centre organising things I would be concerned that Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds or whatever were doing the same kind of thing. So I think there has to be an element of coordination from a UK perspective, but I think you could put a case together to argue, because of the reasons you have given, Mr Banks, that there are certain areas of the world we should concentrate on that have a natural connection with Scotland. That may be a scenario that the central organising committee and the government would actually sign up to, to try and get the things spread across the UK.

Q92 Mr Walker: One can see swarms of Dutch and German camper vans heading up from the south towards Scotland on a massive raiding party!

Mr Garvie: They come on the ferry to Rosyth!

Q93 Chairman: The London organising committee has set up a nation and regions' group. Are the Scottish Local Authorities represented on this group?

Mr Garvie: No, we are not, and I think it is Julia Bracewell who is the chairperson of sportscotland, who is the Scottish representative, but we would very much like to be on that, we could add value to that. I am not looking for a job but there are experts in the COSLA organisation and throughout local authorities who I am sure could bring extra value to that committee, so we would very much support that idea.

Q94 Mr Walker: In your submission you talk about participation rates in sport between the well off and the less well off. What do you think can be done to narrow that gap, particularly with all the health implications that are involved with people perhaps from poorer backgrounds leading more sedentary lifestyles?

Mr Zimny: Through our professional association we have looked at this in some detail, and recent research by Professor Fred Coulter is quite interesting. We all thought that if you build the facilities, build a sports centre, a swimming pool, they will get used in the community. We thought that was the answer but it is not the answer. To find out what the answer is you have to start dealing with the people and their own particular needs. Some of the people will not come out in the evenings because of fear of crime, et cetera. With their own physique they might not think they are sports people, and we are making very strong inroads through GP referral schemes, et cetera, to tackle obesity and diabetes, so instead of getting medicine you come and participate in regular exercise, and people continue quite well and move on with it. We have to get into communities at very much a local level. It is Scotland-wide problem, but there are hotspots. More affluent areas are generally better off health wise and we know that is because of diet and they tend to use the leisure facilities, whether that is local authority or private. But to get to the deprived areas and to get them involved in sport - and I know that Glasgow has been doing a lot of good work through various partnerships and promoting this, and getting into local communities - it is not only getting people in the door of a leisure centre, it is talking to single mums, laying on crèches so that the mums can have time to participate in sport or any physical activity and it is getting to the local youths on the streets to get them into midnight football and midnight basketball at very little or free cost, and to show them the benefits of sport. It is a long process, it does not happen overnight. Again, it is back to what we are doing in partnership with sportscotland in anti-social behaviour areas, et cetera, and working in close partnerships to bring people into involvement in sport. Diet is another important thing. If you say to people, "You have to eat sensibly," it has to be affordable; it has to be able to be delivered locally. Again, there are good examples in the Glasgow area of wholesome food and cooking, simple things, how to cook and make a meal rather than buying ready made meals with all the fats and salts, et cetera. So it is tackling the whole spectrum of a person's life.

Q95 Mr Walker: Why do you think Scotland's problems are any worse than England's, if indeed they are? Are they worse than Liverpool, Newcastle, the poorer parts of London or Birmingham, or is it just something that the media has picked up and that Scotland has this particular problem? Or do you think it is a problem that stretches across communities wherever they are in the United Kingdom?

Ms Macgregor: It varies even in Scotland. Some areas have a very high participation rate within Scotland, and it is not even as simple as saying that there are areas of deprivation and that is always where low participation rates are. I believe that men in Dundee are amongst the highest participators in sport and in some of the west coast areas there are low participation rates across all socio-economic groups. So it is not quite as straightforward, and I think you would probably find that similar situation across England as well. It varies and there are different sophisticated and complex reasons for why that might be that are cultural as well, and I think that what we must not be complacent about is believing that the Olympics, Paralympics and Commonwealth Games can suddenly help people participate or encourage people to participate on their own just by virtue of having them. We have to start thinking now about how we use those Games as a way to build on what we are doing anyway; we must not rely on them alone as a means of increasing participation rates. But, on the other hand, they can certainly add value to the kind of strategies which we are putting in place at the moment to tackle those kinds of issues and to get more information on exactly what is going on within those communities that do have low participation rates. Certainly sports like women's football and so on would be important in terms of providing other role models for young women who are not wanting to get interested in sport. There are a whole range of ways into which we can tap into the benefits that the Olympic Games and the Commonwealth Games can bring.

Q96 Mr Walker: It is strange because as a nation you are better educated than the people in this country, I believe, and I hope that is not a racist statement. You are better educated and you would have thought that that would have fed through into diet and food choices, and there is a juxtaposition there that is quite interesting.

Mr Garvie: As Lindsay indicated, there are all sorts of complex sociological reasons, which it would take a university course to analyse, I suspect. But certainly the Scottish Executive and Scottish Local Authorities, along with the National Health Service, are now addressing primary care as the priority, to really get into this, to stop it becoming a repeating generational thing, which is our problem in many parts of the country.

Ms Macgregor: We are certainly clear that the previous Olympic Games have not managed necessarily to enable higher participation rates just by virtue of having Olympic Games, so we are very clear about that. Yet we want to make sure that we do get to that point where it actually does leave that legacy, but we need to start that issue now about exactly what it can offer.

Q97 Mr Walker: Do you think that a Team Scotland would lead to higher participation rates, if people in Scotland could identify with their own heroes? Not that I am in favour of that, I am just asking that as a neutral question.

Ms Macgregor: I think Scottish participation at all levels, making maximum use of the venues we have, in whatever way, whether it is events or whether it is training camps, but seeing some sort of presence in Scotland and also the presence of our athletes - and we will have athletes from Scotland participating in the Olympic Games in London - will undoubtedly help to engender levels of interest and support.

Q98 Mr Walker: It will be high profile. Andy Murray will be what, 25?

Ms Macgregor: Absolutely, yes, and we must find ways to build on that; whether events from Scotland or not there will be Scottish athletes and that will be one avenue for us to take forward.

Q99 Gordon Banks: A general question about participation figures of people in Scotland taking up sport from different age groups and different socio-economic backgrounds. How do we compare with the rest of the UK in relation to that? Are we so dismally bad or are we on par?

Mr Garvie: I do not know the whole of the UK statistics, but certainly we are getting better. We now have sports coordinators in place in schools to increase the amount of physical activity for primary school children up to two hours a week - which I still think personally is not a terribly high target, but it is getting better all the time. How we compare with the rest of the UK, I do not have that information. But I know that we are trying very hard as a Scottish community, in governance in both local and national, to address the lack of activity in a generation that we have seen become quite obese. So that is a very high priority for all of us, but I do not have the figures.

Q100 Chairman: The huge participation rate difference in well off areas against under privileged areas, do you have any strategy where you can say in five years' time or ten years' time that the participation rate of the deprived areas and well off areas will be the same?

Q101 Mr Garvie: I cannot speak for every single council in Scotland but I know that the Scottish Executive place a very high priority on social inclusion, the agenda which I think nearly every council has signed up to. We are very concerned indeed that there are families in communities in Scotland who have no idea of what many of us take for granted involved in sports. So that is an agenda which is being addressed nationally by the Scottish Executive in partnership with the local authorities through community planning and the National Health Service, all these partners working together. But it will take a generation, I think, to work through this culture that we have inherited.

Q102 Chairman: I can understand that the Scottish Executive has a role to play but what I am asking is if COSLA has any strategy to deal with this issue. 31 councils out of 32 are members of COSLA. Do you have any joint strategy to deal with this issue?

Ms Macgregor: At strategic level we certainly do and there is a great opportunity at the moment, we are about to refresh our Sport 21 shared strategy, which is Scottish Executive with local authorities, sportscotland and other organisations, community and voluntary, with an interest in sport, and that is up for revision next year, and certainly the Commonwealth Games and Olympic Games and Paralympic Games are an opportunity for us to build on what is coming on into what would have been happening anyway, in terms of what we hope will be sustainable beyond 2012, which is something that will carry on beyond that lifetime. So that strategy, which we have in place currently, will be revised next year and local authorities have their role as the delivery agents at the front end of that strategy and local authorities are flexible, locally responsive and have different ways of taking forward that strategy according to local need. But certainly they are members of and very often coordinate local sports partnerships and have their own local sports plans and so on, and it is an issue which is at the forefront of all local authorities to increase participation. We have contact with all children through schools, through communities, through so many different services, but we are also well placed as a route for our partner agencies to get in touch with communities and non-participants as well. So it is a very important route for us, but I think it is important to recognise that partnership working is how we are operating at the moment. We do not have a COSLA strategy, as it were, we are working with our partners in the Scottish Executive, sportscotland and others, and at local level we are locally responsible for a myriad of different plans and partnerships that have emerged to meet local need.

Q103 Mr MacNeil: Picking up on what Charles was talking about, would COSLA be quite relaxed about a Scottish team at the Olympics? I am thinking in particular of when the USSR became 15 nations they increased their medals haul and increased the amount of participants at the Games. From a local authority basis, if you want to increase the amount of people participating in sports, as we have been talking about, would you be quite relaxed about a Scottish Olympic team?

Mr Garvie: It is a national participation; it is a Great British team and I am not sure how Scotland would qualify on that basis to take part.

Q104 Mr MacNeil: But over and above that?

Mr Garvie: Over and above what?

Q105 Mr MacNeil: Over and above that situation, what would COSLA think of an independent team, COSLA's view?

Mr Garvie: I am sorry, Chair, I do not understand the question. I mean, we are a British country, we are part of an international community in all sorts of things and the Olympic Games are part of that and those are the rules. How can we have a Scottish team as well as a British team?

Mr Walker: I do not think my colleague is suggesting that, I think my colleague is suggesting further down the road, for example, if Scotland got independence, which may happen, how would you feel about ---

Q106 Mr MacNeil: I do not mean further down the road, I mean now. We have the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities here today, not the Convention for British Local Authorities, therefore you are a Scottish body and I would like your view, being a Scottish body, of a Scottish team at the Olympics?

Mr Garvie: My view is that there should not be a Scottish team at the Olympics because we are a British team entering the Olympics and individual Scots will go under that banner, as British; we are Scottish and British, and European and probably all members of the human race. I do not see any difficulty. What would stop an able Scot competing in the Olympic Games under the British flag? It is great; it is terrific to be British and Scottish.

Q107 Mr MacNeil: You are not suggesting a global team?

Mr Garvie: Who knows what will happen in the next Millennium.

Q108 Mr MacNeil: And your officials?

Mr Garvie: Officials do not have political opinions.

Mr Zimny: We do not have political opinions, but if we are talking about going down that route I would have to look very carefully at the sporting infrastructure that we have in Scotland that the Scottish athletes and Scottish participants currently enjoy, and could we cater for the Olympic sports squad? They do not all train in England, be clear about that, they will come from other home countries, training elsewhere, England in particular, or indeed abroad. So if we are to be serious about a Scottish team at some point in the future we would have to be very careful about the infrastructure and what can be afforded and what benefits can we give athletes who stay and train in Scotland because it is not just the athlete, it is back to the coaching - you have to have Olympic quality coaches - and all infrastructure and support that goes behind that. That is supplied at the moment through the British Olympic Team set up who have had many years of practice. The athletes know as an Olympic athlete that that support is there and is freely given. We do not have that support in Scotland at the moment for the amount of athletes that may come through to represent Scotland, so we have to set an infrastructure and a cost that goes with that.

Q109 Mr MacNeil: I wonder if Olympic athletes train in their own nations or are they amongst nations when they are doing their training and preparations for the games?

Mr Garvie: I believe so.

Q110 Ms Clark: Picking up on the issue of the legacy that the Olympics may have, you say in your memorandum that local government must ensure that the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games add maximum value to regeneration, health improvement, community safety, lifelong learning, social justice and other cross-cutting strategies and programmes. Could you maybe expand on how you think local government can contribute to that to make sure that we maximise the legacy and the benefits that the Olympics and the Paralympics bring to Scotland?

Mr Garvie: We put all the right words in our submission. In the real world we are 400 miles away from where the Games are going to take place, and I think that we should, as a society in Scotland, with our English colleagues running the Games, look at what we can achieve in reality on the ground, and I think that would be the exercise I would like to undertake. I think there are huge potentials for involving people in many ways. I am particularly interested personally in the training camps coming to Scotland - the spin-off from that is terrific. I live in Peebles and many teams for other sports come to stay in Peebles High Street Hotel and the youngsters are absolutely thrilled to bits; for a week they have international stars on their doorstep. That kind of involvement and spin-off I think is extremely important. It is not structured at all; it is just an encouragement to be involved in the area to which that team comes. So training camps interest me greatly in concentrating on a strategy for Britain to try to spread out the training camps from various countries throughout the UK; and some, I understand, come for months and months before the Games. That could have a really interesting spin-off to the area. That is my main answer to your question.

Q111 Ms Clark: One of the things we were told last week when we saw the Olympics Committee was that nobody should be thinking about developing a facility that they would not want and that there was not a need for anyway, but obviously one of the hopes we would have would be that the Olympics coming means that there are extra resources available to develop facilities that the community needs anyway and have a long-term future. Will you be giving any thought to how local authorities in Scotland can make sure that they maximise the potential benefits to ensure that we develop the sporting facilities that we already have?

Ms Macgregor: I think there are two levels there. At the moment there is already a strategy in place across Scotland for the provision of national infrastructure, which will have the potential for international global competitions and clearly those venues will also have great usage by local people - I am thinking of the proposed Glasgow Arena, for example, and the refurbished Commonwealth Pool in Edinburgh. Those kinds of facilities will be there both for international competition and local people. But one of the major issues within Scotland, no doubt within England as well, is the aging infrastructure of community sports facilities and I think we have to make sure that we are maximising the potential for communities across Scotland; that if we get the crest of the wave right and people are wishing to participate with physical activity as well as sport that we have those facilities in place with the long-term strategy for their maintenance. Clearly sustainability is at the heart of our strategy in terms of the Olympic Games and Commonwealth Games; we do not want to build white elephants which will be of no use to anybody beyond the Olympics. But it is not just about focusing on those national buildings, important though they are, it is also about making sure that there is a clear strategy for maintaining those good facilities that we do have across Scotland, and that is the challenging one, certainly, in terms of resources and capital that it will take.

Mr Garvie: Can I make a comment about the facilities generally, which I have observed, Chairman? I know we have to have facilities for the Olympic Games and international occasions, certainly, but as a society I think we make too much play on facilities and not on the people. I spent some time, for example, in New Zealand. They have one national stadium for rugby and every other one is built up with scaffolding when they require it. They have the best rugby team by far; their second team could be anywhere else. It is interesting, is it not? We build big stadia and our teams are not so good. So my general view about this facilities thing is, yes, we need them, but I think we have concentrated on stadia - Hampden, Arbroath, Celtic Park, Murrayfield, all the others we have in Scotland - to the disadvantage of people, and that is where we are now, and I would like to see a much bigger concentration on the participation in any way we can think of of all age groups in Scotland in the Olympic Games and hopefully the Commonwealth Games if they come to Glasgow. I was very privileged, Chairman, recently to be presenting medals at the Special Olympics in Glasgow. My goodness me, the spirit of the Olympics for me was there. It makes you wonder about the Games that are now before us. I was really touched by the fact that ordinary people, mentally handicapped people were taking part on the podium and it was making a huge difference to their lives. That is what interests me for the people of Scotland, however important facilities are, of course. I think perhaps we have our concentration taken off the ball a bit in regard to the needs of our people.

Ms Macgregor: I think it is possibly the same answer in terms of your previous question on regeneration, how the Olympics can instrumentally help those kind of social policy areas, and I think probably it is again that local authorities and their partner agencies, through community planning, are developing and have developed strategies for improvements in all those areas, and it is really about how can the Olympics add value to those? I think that thought will start on that fairly early on, but there have to be some levels of community ownership, whether that is around bringing the community together culturally around the Olympic Games, about supporting local athletes, about adopting their local training teams. I know that local authorities are also keen to work in partnership with each other where they can provide facilities for teams across local authority boundaries and have that kind of ownership within their communities jointly, and I think that increasingly Scottish football authorities are very well placed to deliver that kind of agenda as well. But it is very much about the regeneration strategies being there and how can the Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games and Paralympics add value to that and get in with communities? It is very important.

Q112 Mr MacNeil: You mentioned New Zealand and I wonder if there are any climatic effects in what is happening in New Zealand, but we will leave that to one side. You can answer it, of course, though. Do you see any change in Lottery funding coming into Scotland in the next seven years as a result of the Olympics and the resources that we might need?
Mr Garvie: I hope so because I am all for Lottery funding money wherever we can access it. I do not wish to encourage people to gamble but it is been quite a helpful spin-off where I am, where local authorities are also strapped for cash, to have this extra dimension. So if there is more money from that source I am in favour of it. Whether it will come or not I do not know. Who knows? But certainly it has been a dimension to providing facilities for a whole range of activities without which I do not know what we would have done.

Q113 Mr MacNeil: In paragraph 3.4 of your memorandum you detail sports facilities which are being built or upgraded independent of the Olympic and Commonwealth Games' bids. Mr Garvie, keeping it local, you maybe highlighted some things that are happening in the Borders and perhaps you are able to compare Scotland to Norway, say, with a similar climate in this sort of area, and what resources and facilities would you look for Scotland to have throughout the country in years to come?

Mr Garvie: I think facilities have to be reviewed. I was around when the Commonwealth Games were being prepared for Edinburgh for 1970. Fantastic new facilities, Meadowbank Stadium and the Royal Commonwealth Pool, but they are all extremely tired now and 30 years on they need to be renewed, and I think Edinburgh is addressing that on the other side of the city, and you heard from my colleague that Edinburgh is going to invest a large sum of money in the refurbishment of the pool. So it is a continuing cycle and as professional demands go up there are more demands for facilities to meet those higher standards. So you can compare it area to area or country to country but it just depends on what the needs are at the particular time, and we have to focus now on the Commonwealth Games coming up and that is an area we will have to examine in Scotland as to what can be provided through taxation to provide these new facilitates. But it is an ongoing thing; it is like your house, you have to keep repairing it and renewing things and getting it in shape for the new generation.

Q114 Mr MacNeil: How do you think Scotland compares to Norway in this respect?

Mr Garvie: I do not know; I do not know the Norway situation.

Ms Macgregor: I think economic and cultural differences as well makes comparison different, but certainly climatically it has its emphasis on skiing and snow and there is a cultural difference, that many people from childhood are driven in that direction. Perhaps we are lacking something like that; perhaps football is our equivalent here, I do not know.

Q115 Mr Walker: It is a great shame that Scotland's mountains are not 2000 feet taller, is it not, because you would be one of the best ski resorts in the western world!

Mr Zimny: Can I come back on the Lottery and legacy? With the Olympics coming on board I would hope that the money allocated to Scotland through the Lottery does not diminish in any way. The Angus council is a small rural authority and I know that from running leisure and the cultural business in my own county. I have a very supportive council and I sit at the top table arguing my case, along with education and social work, but there are statutory undertakings that the council must do; sport and cultural matters in the main are not. They can provide "adequate services" - that is the terminology in legislation. The Lottery to date certainly in the main has been much funding for facility development and that is very difficult for a small rural authority - difficult no doubt for the Glasgows and Edinburghs as well, but for the small rural authorities it is very difficult. I think to see any change would be to the detriment of the rural authorities for provision of facilities in the future because of the Olympics' need to draw the money in for the Olympics aspect. So do not change your Lottery rules and, actually, if you can, make it easier for small authorities to bid in, to be successful. With regard to the legacy, this is very dear to my heart because I keep reading words - and I was reading them coming down in the plane and in the past few days - which the Olympics Committee are saying, and what we are all saying is that we want a benefit, an increase in sport participation from this. I am very keen that we do set ourselves realistic goals and targets that we can measure after 2012, after 2014, to say, "Did we actually meet these targets, did we achieve what we set out in 2005 and 2006 for the young people and all age groups to achieve?" So to say to the legacy in 2015, "Yes, we did achieve that and we are now sustainable as a sporting nation in Scotland." We have a marvellous opportunity, Sport 21, which we made mention of earlier, the Minister in Scotland is due to make a statement before Christmas on her view and outcome of the recent cultural commission work that reported in the summer, 130 odd recommendations, so we are waiting to see the outcome of that exercise. We also want to look at the tourism strategy for Scotland with Event Scotland and Visit Scotland. Local authorities are involved in all of these areas and while there are three separate pieces of work I think it is essential, not just for the Olympics and Commonwealth Games but overall, to have an overarching strategy for Scotland as to where we want to be as part of the wider body of the UK in Europe. I have a major involvement in tourism in my own area; I run the tourist facilities, I run all the leisure facilities, I run the arts and cultural side, so I know what is involved in that. But across Scotland at the highest level and, indeed, in this Committee in Westminster, we have to, I think, sign up to the vision of Scotland of where we want to be, and work very clearly with our tourism colleagues, to work with our cultural colleagues and our sporting colleagues to the benefit of everyone, and if they build it on the back of the Olympics and later the Commonwealth Games we can set realistic targets and expectations that I think can be met. One of the major benefits I believe that we have working in Scotland is that there are only five million of us; we know everyone around the table generally, we know who to speak to to try to move things forward and I think that is a major benefit of the devolved government in Scotland to be able to achieve and work in that close partnership. But we need to support the Scottish Executive and this Committee to say to the officers, "Yes, we agree with it," or, "We do not agree with it but let us put it in place and let us take this opportunity because it will not come round again." - the Olympics will not come around, certainly in my lifetime, to the UK again. So if we miss that I think we do ourselves a grave disservice. It will be a lot of hard work but the Scots are renowned for their hard work.

Q116 Gordon Banks: Can I ask a supplementary on what we were talking about there? Do you think that COSLA will set about trying to spread the benefit to Scotland? Part of my constituency is Clackmannanshire, which has always been the poor relation to Stirling; Stirling has always been the major attraction and benefited, some might say, at the expense of Clackmannanshire. I think of Perth and Kinross council area where the people living in Kinross have a feeling that most attractions, et cetera, go to Perth. Do you think it is part of COSLA's role to spread the benefit or do you see it as being centralised in certain blocks like Edinburgh, Glasgow and Perth? Or do you see benefit coming to all the council areas in Scotland?

Ms Macgregor: Those large authorities you have mentioned have already indicated their willingness to bring in their neighbouring authorities, smaller authorities to work in partnership with them, and they recognise that even within the Glasgow bounds they would have to go outwith to deliver, whether it is mountain biking or sailing, whatever, and Perth and Kinross similarly have already recognised that it would be beneficial for them to work together in some areas of the Olympics with Stirling, Angus, Dundee and Fife, and so on. So those are regional partnerships that are happening in response to the Olympics as they already happen in different parameters across tourism and other events. That is not something that will be new to local authorities and COSLA can certainly be supportive of it and will continue to be supportive of that. In parallel with VOCAL we also have the chief officers from economic development come together similarly and have sub-groups around tourism and other issues like that. So they have regular opportunities to come together and share policies and ideas on maximising the benefits, not just for their own authority but also across Scotland. So I am sure that we will continue in that vein.

Mr Garvie: It is quite interesting, Chairman. I chair the COSLA Art and Leisure Group, which includes sport, which represents 31 of Scotland's 32 councils and I am not quite sure whether it is a good thing or bad thing, but we have never had a division in two and a half to three years, and I found that quite interesting that we have a consensus on just about everything regarding our work. I find that fascinating because I go back to my own council and we have divisions on everything. So I think there is a cooperative agenda in COSLA to do what you are asking.

Q117 Gordon Banks: In your memorandum you identify three underpinning principles for delivering the Games and four priority outcomes. How are local authorities working to support these principles and to achieve these outcomes?

Ms Macgregor: Certainly sustainability is in there for all local authorities across Scotland and I think the theme of the Olympics is certainly going to be reinforcing that for all of us, that we must really make this a opportunity to put our money where our mouth is on sustainability, not just on environmental issues but clearly on community issues as well and on the factor of venues being sustainable into the future across the board, and local authorities already have that very strongly within their community planning agenda and within their single authority agendas also. So these issues have all come forward from local authorities and the commonalities across them have been incorporated here. Similarly, in terms of added value, clearly with the modernising and efficient drives for local government added value is now a must-have for all of us there, and clearly the Olympics and Paralympics like nothing else at the moment have opportunities for us to add value to the range of strategies that we have all emphasised are up for revision next year, and give us a good opportunity to add into through these sporting avenues. Quality, I think, as part of that efficiency agenda that, yes, there are areas where we must make savings but not at the expense of quality, and certainly with something as high profile and global as the Olympics then quality must be in there, and we are quite clear within our strategies for the national buildings and so on that quality will always be an intrinsic element in that. So these are the three elements which all local authorities have responded on as elements that they would like to see in there. Similarly the four bullet points on the outcomes are shared by local authorities and shared by our partner agencies. They kind of underpin our Sport 21 strategy as it stands at the moment, so we are pretty well all signed up to that, it is the direction in which we are all going. Similarly for the economic development benefits that we are looking for, you would find those also in our national tourism strategy that would be developed as well. It is there at the moment and only last week local authorities, including leaders and chief executives, came together with Visit Scotland and Event Scotland for a major conference, and I think there are two or three similar conferences planned over the next few months. It is high up the agenda and the issues that you were raising around should we target specific countries or should we have a kind of universal tourism strategy, I suspect that there will be a twin-track there and that is an important question. But I think that there are already those mechanisms in place, which is very fortunate, to take forward all of those bullet points within sport, within tourism, within economic development. The trick is going to be to join them all up because at the moment until the Olympics come along we are kind of working within our different strategies and we perhaps need to look again at the kind of mechanisms that we have in place in response to the opportunity to join them all up. So that is perhaps something we need to think more closely about with our partner organisations.

Q118 Mr MacNeil: We have talked quite rightly at length about London having its own Olympic Games in 2021. Do you ever foresee a time when a Scottish might bid for the Olympic Games?

Mr Garvie: I was involved in discussions in my previous guise as a local authority chief executive a long time ago - it was before that actually, in Edinburgh - of a joint committee that went into this whole issue and Glasgow and Edinburgh came together and spent quite a lot of time and resource into examining that, and the conclusion was no, we could not do it as a country, and certainly now I think that has even worsened the situation because of the demands of a modern Olympic Games and all sorts of developments that have taken place since the early 1980s, late 1970s.

Q119 Mr MacNeil: What were the main reasons?

Mr Garvie: We could not do it; we just do not have the resources to do it. The infrastructure requirements were so huge that it would have put in place an infrastructure that would not have been required after the Games, I remember that issue coming up - this is 20-odd years ago now - which London could easily provide, or Paris or wherever else.

Q120 Mr MacNeil: You were looking at 20 years ago.

Mr Garvie: We were looking at the scheme 20 years ago.

Q121 Mr MacNeil: Which games?

Mr Garvie: I cannot remember; 1990 something.

Q122 Mr MacNeil: 1992 or 1996.

Mr Garvie: Something like that.

Q123 David Mundell: But no country as small as Scotland has ever hosted the Games, have they? Australia had the lowest population, did it not, but huge land space?

Mr Garvie: Yes. It just did not stack up. And both cities, with the then Secretary of State, we decided to drop it; we could not do it. And I think that must be an even worse situation now than it was then.

Q124 Mr MacNeil: Manchester had a bid.

Mr Garvie: Yes.

Q125 David Mundell: Can I ask you what you think might be an impediment to achieving your goals. One of the issues, I suspect, might be finance. I do not know if you were here in time to hear Scottish questions in the Chamber today, but the issue of council tax and concerns about levels of council tax was being raised, particularly in relation to Aberdeen and indeed Inverclyde, which the Minister identified as the worst run council in Scotland. In relation to what your goals are how is the funding of local authorities going to impact on your ability to achieve these goals?

Mr Garvie: This is a very big subject about the funding of local authorities, which if we had three days we could go into it, and about which I feel strongly. I think most of local authorities' funding comes from the centre - I think it is the 80-20 formula - which I think disempowers and disenfranchises the true meaning of democracy at local level. So you are on to a hobbyhorse of mine, Mr Mundell. I think the control that councils have over their finances and tax-raising powers is so minimised now as to become marginalized, although politicians of all parties still make it a big deal. The fact of the matter is that we only raise less than 20 per cent now in actual council tax income. We ought to be looking at how in fact we make local authorities more accountable by going back to what it used to be - I think it was 50-50 20 odd years ago. That for me is the major issue about the viability and responsibility directed to the electorate of local councils. I know council tax is a big issue but it is for me a question of the structure of the financing of local government that is the issue here.

Q126 David Mundell: So you are saying that your ability to achieve the goals and priorities that you set out is really dependent on how much money the Scottish Executive gives you.

Mr Garvie: How much borrowing we are allowed to do under the prudential formula, how much money we can get under the PPP systems. We are of course creatures of Parliament. The answer to that is, yes, we are dependent on the decisions of the Scottish Parliament for how we are structured and financed. You can add as much as you like to the council tax to pay for all of that but that is a hugely contentious issue which would not be acceptable to the people, so it has to be dealt with at the centre because most of our money comes from there.

Q127 David Mundell: Basically what you are saying is that any of the things that are to be done, there would not be public acceptance for it to be funded through council tax?
Mr Garvie: I do not think we could fund some of the huge proposals that were being put forward solely out of council tax; it has to be done either through borrowing money, through PPP or special grants or Lottery funding or private sponsorship, as other countries have done. But, no, council tax will only take so much and any responsible politician wanting to raise it above reasonable levels to do with income streams I think would be irresponsible.

Q128 David Mundell: So in terms of what additional support either the UK or government and the Scottish Executive would provide, has COSLA identified what specifically would be required either in terms of a financial package or borrowing changes?

Mr Garvie: For what purpose?

Q129 David Mundell: To allow you to achieve all the things that you set out?

Ms Macgregor: We have not yet got to that point and we are at the early stages and clearly that will have to be done across the board and again it will have to be done in partnership because there are very few areas in this where it would be entirely nowadays within the local authority's orbit. However, there will be issues such as, hopefully, attracting training teams and so on where an extra amount of investment might enable that to go forward, and there needs to be some kind of audit of those facilities where, if it were only a little bit extra accommodation, it could enable a training team to be encouraged in, and then that needs to be provided to make sure that we can build on that possibility. But we are not at that point yet. Certainly Glasgow and some individual authorities are at the point of doing their own audits around facilities and how they can team up, whether it is with universities, public schools, all sorts of options in terms of delivering some of these elements, but in terms of hard and fast figures at the moment that bit is probably a little further down the line.

Q130 David Mundell: What you are saying is that many of the goals and objectives could not really be achieved on a business as usual basis.

Ms Macgregor: Our main strategy is that we are hoping to widen participation and deliver athletes for the Olympics and so on within our existing strategies and indeed financial requirements. However, there will be additional elements, in particular around the training camp, with probable promotion of tourism because of the added value that that might bring in, for which extra funding would probably add value and make it even more successful than the existing strategy would be. But we are not trying to go out with the bounds of existing plans and policies with the Olympic Games. However, there will be some elements where individual local authorities and partners will be seeking additional funding in order to be able to deliver that quality of package that would just make the difference.

Mr Garvie: Incentive grants from the government of several tens of thousands of pounds to bring a small or medium sized country training camp to Scotland or anywhere in the UK would be the extra resource, an example of the kind of resource that we would expect to come from outside the council tax arrangement.

Q131 David Mundell: Which would be particularly welcome in Peebles!

Mr Garvie: Absolutely, very nice too!

Q132 David Mundell: Other than finance is there anything else that you think is an impediment, that you require the UK government or Scottish Executive to assist with, other than the financial issues which you have covered?

Mr Garvie: The reality, as I said earlier, Chairman, is that we are 400 miles away from the Games, and that is where we are. We have to think what is possible. I mean, if I were being completely outrageous a nice new bullet train line from Scotland to London, which could be used afterwards to connect promptly to Europe, at the cost of billions of pounds would be very nice; to get to London in two and a half hours or whatever would be terrific. That is probably unrealistic, but that would be fantastic, would it not? Would that not be a tremendous spin-off for generations to come for the Scottish economy and for the Scottish people? But I presume you are talking within a smaller financial frame than that, Mr Mundell?

Q133 David Mundell: It is an interesting suggestion anyway. Are there other things within the ordinary parameters, things that are blockages in other systems, planning systems, inter-governmental working. Are there other things that are going to need to be done?

Mr Garvie: I do not see that at all, Chairman, from where I am sitting. I think we have a very interesting consensus politically both in COSLA and VOCAL. We have this new duty of community governance and people are working together and I think it is very interesting. Maybe I am being over optimistic, but I just think that there is a desire to move forward together as a country in all sorts of areas to make things better. I honestly do not see any blockages that are obvious to me that would stop that. We want this to work for Scotland. In all sorts of areas we want to do better, and I think since the Parliament established we actually have a situation that is going to benefit us.

Q134 Gordon Banks: Last week we heard how two Scottish companies have been successful in winning the contracts to produce the bid document and to supply flags and banners. There are, of course, some very significant contracts that are going to be let in the run-up to the Games, not least to build some of the new arenas that are going to be necessary to support the Games. Is local government able to offer support to Scottish firms to enable them to win such contracts, particularly those in Scotland itself, or would there be a risk that any such support could fall foul of the EU regulations?

Mr Garvie: I generally think that the market takes care of itself and that good companies will get the business. We had a very successful company in the Borders, who got all the business for the British Lions, outfits, for example, and other companies you have mentioned. I think the way that local authorities can be economically active and of help is using all the powers they have available to them when companies come at them. To make a rent-free period to start with or reduced excess to new buildings, that kind of facilitating role. But generally in my experience economically companies know where they are in the market and know what they are about, and I think that to try and find an agenda which is almost a false one, when we have very lively companies when they know very well what is coming up with the Games, would be a mistake. I do not think we need to get involved unless we are asked.

Q135 Gordon Banks: Would you feel that with the way we implement some of the EU regulations, et cetera, that we implement them in the most appropriate way and other countries tend not to implement them in such a transparent way as we do, and do you think that we might fall behind the international bidding structure that is going on? Because there is no doubt about it that the international bidding in national contracts will be used significantly in this example. So do you think maybe by our playing by the rules sometimes that it is to our disadvantage?

Mr Zimny: Speaking as an officer of a rural council and knowing the financial guidelines and restrictions we have follow in governance rules and regulations, that is inescapable. Also the rules and guidance as set out in all of Scotland. So I see the role of local authorities in being able to give assistance, other than maybe some business start-up works or something of that sort from an economic development standpoint, to be very, very difficult or unachievable, because we certainly could not subsidise a bid going in. I do not think that is part of local government's remit, and I am sure that the auditors would have something to say to us on that. I do know the restrictions, working on a day to day basis and audit trails that have to be in place, and quite rightly too - it is taxpayers' money. So I do not see any of us taking a risk because the way audit works there are no hiding places. In Scotland my council is the first council to be audited under a new regime with Audit Scotland. We did quite well, I am pleased to say, but it is very thorough and certainly from the subsidising aspect of this I do not think that is a real option at all for local authorities to consider.

Mr Garvie: And I think we should play it by the rules.

Mr Zimny: It should be a level playing field for all involved, and it should work to UK guidance, so we should be able to make it a level playing field.

Gordon Banks: But that is only within UK bidders that it becomes a level playing field.

Q136 Mr Walker: There is a broader issue and that is the government, our government, the IOC, whoever is charge, must encourage bids from SME businesses as well because I imagine that the company you were talking about which did the Lions' shirts was an SME. So we have to make sure that it is not just large multinationals but actually SME, local domestic businesses getting to take part in this.

Mr Garvie: Karon - and Mr Mundell will know them - a very successful woollen manufacturer, and they did their own thing. An enterprise company will do it, and I think that is true of most companies. They know their business; they will be where the market is.

Mr Walker: It is just important, I think we are agreed, that we make sure that there is the opportunity, that there are contracts suited for SME bids.

Q137 Chairman: In the final paragraph of your memorandum you set out 11 issues which you need to be considered and resolved if Scotland is to benefit fully from the 2012 Olympics. Who do you consider should play the lead role in addressing these issues?

Ms Macgregor: It is clarity across all of them of knowing who the lead is. I do not think there is necessarily one lead across all those issues there because some of them are devolved issues that the Scottish Executive can take forward and others are local government issues which local government can pursue. I think the issue really is being clear right from the start about both mechanisms for inputting the Great Britain agenda, ways in which Scotland and England will interface on those issues which are devolved, but nevertheless there will have a corporate approach. Ensuring that local government, as we have already outlined, is a significant player across all the issues that we hope Scotland will benefit from and ensuring that local government has a voice into all those different mechanisms. So I think that probably there is not any one lead although we need to be really clear about where each of the leads are and the routes in for local government to make sure that we can really play the role to deliver the best Olympics for Scotland as well as for the rest of the country.

Mr Garvie: Chairman, in parallel with that the Minister has just asked me to chair a committee for the rest of Scotland for the Commonwealth Games' bid for Glasgow. So I think that it is very important that we actually learn from the Olympic process and hopefully make a successful bid for Glasgow and Scotland for 2014.

Q138 Chairman: I can understand that you are all partners, local government, COSLA and the Scottish Executive, but some organisation has to take the lead. In your view which organisation should take the lead, local government, Scottish Executive, or even the British Government?

Mr Garvie: There is a theory that talks about emergent leadership, and I think that in any human situation that happens it depends on who is at the table and what they have to offer. I suspect it will be the very excellent Minister, Patrician Ferguson, who will take that role on. If she does not someone else will fill the gap.

Q139 Mr Walker: How confidant are you that Glasgow will win the Commonwealth Games? I would love to see it win the Commonwealth Games personally. Are you confident that you can do it?

Mr Garvie: Yes, we are very confident. But the Scots football team were as well! No, we are confident and a lot of work is about to start - a huge amount of work.

Q140 Mr Walker: Who else is in the frame, from intelligence?

Mr Garvie: I think there is a Canadian city and an African city, as I understand it. There are others but there are three who are serious contenders. But the good thing about it is being invited in by Glasgow, with the encouragement of the Scottish Executive for an all of Scotland bid to be put together - it is not just Glasgow - and with that experience of London we will look at that very carefully.

Q141 David Mundell: We can be confident that people will get something out of this one then.

Mr Garvie: An interesting point, Chairman, that is made because there is a rule that you have to be within 20 minutes travelling time for the Commonwealth Games of any event. That rule does not subsist, as I understand it, for the Olympic Games, and I would very much like to see Rugby Sevens or mountain biking coming to the Borders, but maybe that is something we can address together, David.

Q142 Chairman: Can I thank the witnesses for their attendance this afternoon? Before I declare the meeting closed do you want to add anything in conclusion, perhaps to the areas that we have not covered this afternoon?

Mr Garvie: I think we have had a good hearing, Chairman. I hope our presence has been helpful to your deliberations and I genuinely wish you well in your conclusions in moving this forward to benefit all the people of Scotland. Thank you for inviting us.

Chairman: Your evidence will be helpful to us, certainly. Thank you very much.