Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-31)
TONY BALDRY
MP
19 JULY 2005
Q20 Mr Dismore: Well, to come back
to the original question, when, in terms of time, run-through
or whatever, did you first consider that there was a prospective
benefit from the relationship?
Tony Baldry: I think probably
from mid-November onwards and then I think after we returned,
and I think there were some discussions when we were in Freetown,
and when we came back from Freetown, that led to the drafting
of a joint participation agreement.
Q21 Mr Dismore: Can I ask you about
a different issue now. You have seen the criticisms of the Anti-Corruption
Commissioner in Sierra Leone. What do you say to them?
Tony Baldry: Well, when I met
the Vice-President in London a couple of weeks ago, I asked him
about them. So far as the Government of Sierra Leone is concerned,
I understand that they have no criticism of my conduct at all.
I have never met Mr Collier. It seems to me that Mr Collier did
not know the full facts. He made a criticism about Angel Gate
Aviation and he clearly did not know the facts about that. Those
must be matters for him, but I set out clearly to the Committee
and to everyone what I have done and that is for you to judge.
It seems to me that Mr Collier had made a judgment without the
full facts, without ever having got in touch with me and without
ever having asked me for an explanation.
Q22 Mr Dismore: Would you agree with
me that one of the basic thrusts of his argument is that developing
world countries do look to the UK to set a good example in terms
of, and "corruption" may be putting it too high, but
in terms of business dealings involving politicians?
Tony Baldry: I do not think, Mr
Dismore, in fairness, that I have done anything for which Mr Collier
could justifiably criticise me.
Q23 Mr Dismore: That is not the question
I put to you.
Tony Baldry: No, but I am just
saying that I do not think there is anything I have done for which
Mr Collier could justifiably criticise me. Indeed one of the ironies
of all of this is that one of the reasons I wrote to the Secretary
of State was that I was very anxious that a major new UK investor
to Sierra Leone should get it right. One of the ironies of all
of this is that I was very anxious that Milestone should get it
right in Sierra Leone and that was all. What I was seeking to
do in that letter to the Secretary of State was I wanted to ensure
that they, and I was not expecting a written reply, I was not
expecting some, as The Sunday Times suggests, "seal
of approval", not at all, but what I was wanting was officials
in Freetown to talk to Milestone officials to make sure that Milestone
were following the correct procedures. As I understand it, they
have subsequently, without any fuss, actually done that and they
have got on with it.
Q24 Mr Dismore: But can you answer
my question?
Tony Baldry: Of course one would
want to ensure that UK companies, UK Members of Parliament and
everyone involved in the UK would set a good example. With all
due respect, I do not think that I have done anything which in
any way confounds the example one would want to set in Sierra
Leone and, as I say, when I saw the Vice-President two weeks ago
when he was in London, he made it very clear that, so far as the
Government of Sierra Leone was concerned, they considered that
I had behaved in a perfectly proper way.
Q25 Mr Dismore: Thank you. The last
point I want to put to you is the sort of growing relationship
between your business interests, your attempt to assist Milestone
and your role as Chair of the Select Committee. Would you consider
that your role as Chair of the Select Committee on International
Development does impose on anybody in this area perhaps even a
higher standard in terms of how you deal with business relations
in developing world countries?
Tony Baldry: Absolutely and, as
I say, I do not think, Mr Dismore, that there is anything—well,
if there is anything in the Commissioner's report which says that
I have in any way failed in that test, I would be very grateful
if you would point it out to me.
Q26 Mr Dismore: Well, I am asking
you.
Tony Baldry: No, no. If there
is anything in the Commissioner's report which suggests—
Q27 Mr Dismore: No, I am asking you
for your opinion.
Tony Baldry: Well, of course,
and I make it clear, I would expect the Chairman of a Select Committee
or a Member of Parliament of my seniority to behave in an exemplary
fashion, but if there is anything in the Commissioner's report
or in the evidence which you believe shows that I have not done
that, I would be very grateful if you would point it out to me
and give me the opportunity to respond to it.
Q28 Mr Dismore: In the end the Committee
will produce its own report. The Commissioner obviously reports
to us and our own document may or may not endorse the Commissioner.
I am sure you are aware of the procedure. The next point I want
to put to you is: did you feel that there was any risk of your
role, as Chair of the International Development Committee, becoming
blurred with your business interests in the developing world?
Tony Baldry: No. I had declared
to my colleagues on the Select Committee my interests. They are
declared to the Committee. My directorship of Red Eagle Resources
and my directorship of Invicta Africa were there on the Register
of Members' Interests. They are shown to the Committee on a regular
basis. I do not think any colleague on the Committee ever had
a scintilla of concern about those relationships and they could
have raised it. I do not think anyone had any reason to raise
it with me and I do not think I had any reason to believe that
in any way my role as Chairman of the Select Committee conflicted
with my business interests.
Q29 Mr Dismore: It is not so much
to do with the question of declaration, but more to do with the
question of advocacy within the very strict rules of the House,
the advocacy rule, both in relation to lobbying the UK Government
and in relation to lobbying overseas companies. My concern here
is whether there was some blurring between your business interests
and your role as Chair of the Select Committee bearing in mind,
for example, the points made by the Commissioner in Sierra Leone.
Tony Baldry: I think I have answered
that. At no time were any of my approaches to anyone, to President
Kabbah or the Vice-President, as Chairman of the International
Development Select Committee and I do not think that at any time
was that ever mentioned, so it seems to me, reading the Parliamentary
Commissioner's report, that the only place where I have got it
wrong was in relation to the letter to the Secretary of State.
I have given my explanation to the Committee on that. As I said,
I have no quarrel with the Commissioner's findings, but my explanation
is there for the Committee to see. I was not seeking, I put it
on the record and I put it on the record again, I was not seeking
benefit from Milestone, let alone seeking an exclusive benefit
from Milestone, but I accept that if the Commissioner and others,
reading the letter, objectively consider that that may be have
to be construed, then I have to accept the consequences of whatever
interpretation is put on it. I ought to have written a much clearer
letter in the circumstances, but during my time as Chairman of
the Select Committee, I hope that I discharged my responsibilities
as the Chairman of that Committee diligently and with some integrity.
Q30 Chairman: Can I ask if any other
colleagues have any questions they wish to raise? Can I then ask
a final question. Do you have any idea how The Sunday Times
obtained your letter to the Secretary of State?
Tony Baldry: Yes, I gave it to
them. What happened was, and sorry, I thought I had explained
it to the Commissioner, but what happened was that late on Maundy
Thursday The Sunday Times telephoned me and their initial
questions were about Milestone and Milestone's activities in Sierra
Leone. I said, "Look, I can't help you in detail with this.
These are matters that you must take up with Dr Levy", and
I gave them Dr Levy's telephone number. The journalist then went
on to say, "We understand that you have written to the Secretary
of State", and I acknowledged that immediately, that I had
done, and I think the Commissioner has seen the transcript of
the interview that I had with the journalist from The Sunday
Times. I did not consider that I had anything to hide and
so he asked if he could see a copy of the letter and I immediately
faxed it across to him.
Q31 Chairman: Thank you very much.
Are there any other questions? No. Thank you very much, Mr Baldry.
Mr Baldry: Thank you.
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