Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 79)
TUESDAY 29 NOVEMBER 2005
MR DAVID
ROWLANDS CB
Q60 Dr Whitehead: The fact that in
the speaking notes and Q and A for the Select Committee briefing
there is no mention of any discussions or meetings in the Department
about Railtrack has been noted and agreed, but were there any
briefings relating to the Secretary of State's appearance before
the Select Committee outside the preparation of that note and
I assume a discussion immediately prior to the Secretary of State's
appearance before the Select Committee of the contents of that
note?
Mr Rowlands: I cannot give you
the answer to that question this morning. I will ensure when I
go back to the Department that we look back into the Secretary
of State's old diaries to see how many, if any, briefing sessions
took place prior to the Select Committee appearance. It is normally
the case that you would expect any Minister appearing in front
of a select committee to have at least one briefing session, but
we will try to check the old diaries to establish what took place.[6]
Q61 Chairman: Was not his appearance
the day after the statement to the House of Commons on the problems
at Railtrack?
Mr Rowlands: It was shortly after.
I am not sure if it was 24 hours later but, yes, there was a statement
to the House followed by the appearance.
Q62 Chairman: For which there would
have been a separate briefing?
Mr Rowlands: Almost certainly.
Q63 Chairman: To deal with the issues
raised?
Mr Rowlands: I will ask the Department
to try and produce the dates in a chronology.[7]
Q64 Mr Dismore: Could we have a copy
of the briefing for the Ministerial Statement as well?
Mr Rowlands: We will see if we
can find it for you.[8]
Mr Dismore: That may or may not have
the history.
Q65 Mr Jenkins: What I find strange,
hearing the evidence, is that I would normally expect a wash up
meeting and yet no one can remember whether there was or was not.
I would say there was not a wash up meeting and have it established
rather than trying to leave it as a grey area. Would you not feel
more secure if you could state that there was not a wash up meeting?
Mr Rowlands: I am being very careful
not to give this Committee evidence that will not stand up or
claim to recollect things I cannot recollect. I cannot tell you
whether there was or was not a wash up meeting. We can look to
see in the old diaries whether there is anything there, although
I think in truth that sort of meeting does not get in a diary.
It just happens rather impromptu after an event.[9]
Q66 Mr Jenkins: Normally, do you
run the Department along those lines? There are quite informal
meetings that do not get into diaries or are not recorded when
they are part and parcel of the process?
Mr Rowlands: An informal wash
up after something like that, if it took place, certainly would
not be in a diary and I doubt it would be in a minute. There might
have been some action points as a result if such a meeting had
taken place but it does not always follow that any Minister has
a wash up after a select committee appearance. I myself, with
the current Secretary of State, recently appeared in front of
the Transport Select Committee to talk about the annual report.
We did not go back to the Department and have a wash up. We went
in different directions afterwards, so you do not always have
such a thing.
Q67 Mr Jenkins: You said you were
running around putting out fires at that time in the Department.
Do you consider the Secretary of State had poor support at that
meeting on this occasion?
Mr Rowlands: No. I do not think
at any stage whilst Mr Byers was DTLR Secretary he had poor support
on any transport issues.
Q68 Mr Jenkins: I am surprised because
on a couple of occasions you have said, "At this distance
I cannot remember."
Mr Rowlands: I was making a general
statement in relation to Mr Byers, when he was Secretary of State,
and the support he had from the Department. What I find more difficult
is to give a detailed recollection of particular events in great
detail from four years away.
Q69 Mr Jenkins: If I was asked out
of the blue now what I was doing three months ago, I would have
great difficulty without going back to my diary to recall events.
What I find even more troubling is that the very next day a point
of order was raised challenging the evidence given in that session
and nothing was done about it. You did not go back and bolt it
down to make sure that every note you had was recorded, because
this could blow into a big thing.
Mr Rowlands: I will check for
you as to what did or did not happen and we will let the clerk
have a further note.[10]
Q70 Chairman: On that point, the
Parliamentary Division would normally look through Hansard
to see if there were any points of order or Speakers' comments
concerning the Department and then flag them up for attention.
Mr Rowlands: Yes, I would have
expected so.
Chairman: It would be helpful if you
could see whether there was any follow up.[11]
Q71 Angela Browning: Has any investigation
been made into the officials who attended the Select Committee
with Mr Byers since this inquiry by this Committee started about
any recollection they have of their conversations when the session
finished, because it is very often the case that, after something
like that, the Minister concerned will briefly discuss with officials
how they thought it went. I wonder whether there is, if not official
notation, any information from that kind of conversation.
Mr Rowlands: I think I said earlier
there were apparently three members of the Department present
when Mr Byers was giving evidence: Dan Corry, who is now a Special
Adviser in another department, David Hill, who is now in another
department and David Macmillan, who is still an official in my
Department. I have talked to Mr Macmillan. I think I said earlier
he really does not remember much of the detail of this from four
years ago.
Q72 Angela Browning: Were any of
those three the Private Secretary to the Secretary of State?
Mr Rowlands: Mr Hill was one of
the Private Secretaries. Mr Corry was a Special Adviser and Mr
Macmillan at the time was working in railways.
Q73 Angela Browning: When a select
committee meets, as you will be aware, they discuss in advance
the questions and who might ask what. There is a written guide
for the committee. Was that guide of what might be asked ever
made available formally or informally to your Department?
Mr Rowlands: I am afraid I cannot
answer the question. I just do not know at this distance in time.
Q74 Dr Whitehead: The memorandum
on 13 November from Mr Linnard, the Director of Rail Delivery,
in documents that have been supplied to the Committee, states
that one of the Clerks to the Select Committee on 13 November
had phoned him, Mr Linnard, setting out an outline of the likely
areas of questioning that would take place. In that list of likely
areas of questioning, it is not the background document given
to the Select Committee; it is simply a note of headings of likely
areas of questioning. There is a statement, "Pre-5 October,
the events leading up to Railtrack going into administration",
which I would interpret as meaning discussions or meetings relating
to the administration of Railtrack.[12]
Would you agree that in the light of that memorandum and the notification
that this area or subject will be raised, the fact that nothing
relating to that area subsequently appeared in the briefing to
the Minister is of concern?
Mr Rowlands: Unless that was covered
in the briefing that had been done for the statement only some
days earlier. As I have offered, we will see if we can find the
briefing produced for that earlier statement.[13]
Q75 Mr Dismore: Do you not think
the Secretary of State should at least have been tipped off that
this was one of the issues that was going to come up?
Mr Rowlands: This note from Mr
Linnard is to the Secretary of State.
Q76 Chairman: It says at the end,
"You already have briefing on most of the Railtrack issues."[14]
Mr Rowlands: I assume that is
a reference back to what had been produced some days earlier.
Q77 Mr Dismore: You have been asked
about the wash up session. Would that normally take place after
the transcript had been prepared or before?
Mr Rowlands: You are making an
assumption there is always a wash up session after a select committee
appearance.
Q78 Mr Dismore: If there is to be
one, would it be after?
Mr Rowlands: In my experience,
wash up sessions on anything take place pretty immediately after
the event concerned.
Q79 Mr Dismore: Before the transcript?
Mr Rowlands: If there is one.
Chairman: If colleagues have no more
questions, Mr Rowlands, thank you very much.
6 Attachment A [not printed] to letter from the Department
for Transport [Appendix 7]. Back
7
Attachment D [not printed] to letter from the Department for
Transport [Appendix 7]. Back
8
Attachment B [not printed] to letter from the Department for
Transport [Appendix 7]. Back
9
Letter from the Department for Transport [Appendix 7]. Back
10
Letter from the Department for Transport [Appendix 7]. Back
11
Letter from the Department for Transport; Attachment C [not printed]
to letter from the Department for Transport [Appendix 7]. Back
12
Flag 3 [not printed] to Memoranda from the Department of Transport
[Appendix 7]. Back
13
Attachment B [not printed] to letter from the Department for
Transport [Appendix 7]. Back
14
Flag 3 [not printed] to Memoranda from the Department of Transport
[Appendix 7]. Back
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