Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
MR GEORGE
MUIR, MR
DAVID FRANKS,
MR IAN
DOBBS, MR
ANDREW HAINES,
MR KEITH
LUDEMAN AND
MR ROBIN
GISBY
19 APRIL 2006
Chairman: Good afternoon, ladies and
gentlemen, and welcome. We do have one or two bits of housekeeping
to perform, but I should warn you that I am threatened with a
division so I would say to the witnesses that should the entire
Committee rise to its feet and leave, I trust that you will not
take this personally! Members having an interest to declare?
Mr Martlew: Member of the Transport &
General Workers' Union and General & Municipal Workers' Union.
Mr Clelland: Member of Amicus.
Graham Stringer: Member of Amicus.
Clive Efford: Member of the Transport
& General Workers' Union.
Chairman: ASLEF.
Mrs Ellman: Member of the Transport &
General Workers' Union.
Mr Wilshire: South West Trains provide
me with a car park pass.
Q1 Chairman: I hope this extravagance
will not go to your head! Perhaps we could send them a list of
what we would like! Gentlemen, can I ask you first for the record
to identify yourselves, starting with you Mr Muir.
Mr Muir: George Muir, Director
General of the Association of Train Operating Companies.
Mr Franks: David Franks, Chief
Executive of the National Express Group's Trains Division.
Mr Dobbs: Ian Dobbs, Chief Executive
of the Rail Division at Stagecoach Group.
Mr Haines: Andrew Haines, MD of
the Rail Division of First Group.
Mr Ludeman: Keith Ludeman, Chief
Executive of the Go-Ahead Group's Rail Division.
Mr Gisby: Robin Gisby, Director
of Operations and Customer Services at Network Rail.
Q2 Chairman: Because you are now
in the posh end of the establishment of Westminster you have proper
microphones operating in front of you, so with any luck we shall
be able to hear what you have to say. Did anybody have a short
statement they wanted to make before we begin. Mr Muir?
Mr Muir: Train operators were
very pleased that you did decide to have this hearing on safety
at stations. It has been on the news recently of course in London
and it is very important to our passengers. Looking back over
the last 10 years, it is perhaps easy to forget that 10 years
ago the conditions on trains and stations were in many places
really very poor, and that in the last 10 years the situation
on trains and stations has been improved enormously. Train operators
regarded the situation they found 10 years ago as quite intolerable
for their passengers. Since then they have been recruiting specialist
staff and have provided a large number of gated stations, cleaned
and painted stations, removed graffiti, introduced CCTV cameras,
and supported the British Transport Police. These measures have
been effective. Crime on the railway has declined by a good deal
in the last 10 years. What happened in the past of course is interesting
but it is more important where we go from here. We need to achieve
continuous improvement in the safety of our passengers and we
have to do this through analysis and good thinking.
Q3 Chairman: Mr Muir, a lot of these
areas will be covered by the questions that we are about to ask
you. Did you have a particular point that you wanted to make?
Mr Muir: I was going to add that
the three areas that we found most effective are patrolling, equipment
and partnership with the police.
Q4 Chairman: Thank you. Can I ask
our friend from Stagecoach first of all, you said you are in favour
of a voluntary approach to raising standards and that high standards
of passenger safety are in the interests of commercial companies.
If that is the case, why do we have a problem with crime and the
fear of crime at stations?
Mr Dobbs: I think in actual fact
what we have seen over the last 10 years is a reduction in crime.
On our particular franchise, South West Trains, we have seen a
reduction of 18% since 1995, despite the fact that passenger numbers
have gone up 50%, so in real terms there has been a considerable
improvement. That has been against a background of a lack of prescription.
We have done that for good business reasons. We have also seen
a significant reduction in the amount of reported incidents at
unmanned stations, which is interesting, particularly over the
last three years. Only about 2.3% of crime is actually at those
stations whereas the vast majority is at staffed stations, and
that is where we have targeted resources.
Q5 Chairman: If this is the result,
why would you have a problem with compulsory standards?
Mr Dobbs: I do not think we have
got a problem with it as such. We will look at whatever Government
puts to us. We have to bid as franchisees on whatever terms are
put to us, but we think that over the last 10 years we have seen
that the voluntary approach, which is customer focused, it is
targeted at our customers on the ground, has actually worked.
Q6 Chairman: Given the large numbers
of stations there are, how can the Government ensure that they
are safe for passengers across the whole of the network without
some very sensible, basic, compulsory standards?
Mr Dobbs: We have actually employed
voluntary standards during the last 10 years to get where we are
today. It is clear that as we go forward in the way the franchises
are put to us, the way we have to bid, that things are changing
slightly. There are often requirements when we bid and we take
on franchises to improve the position that we inherit. Certainly
on South West Trains, as an example, we have done that to a huge
degree, both in terms of the staffing we have put on the ground
and in terms of the technology we put out there as well. It is
a joint thing.
Q7 Chairman: Mr Franks, you have
got a rather more prescriptive approach in mind from the Government.
Tell us why that is?
Mr Franks: I think a one-size-fits-all
approach is not appropriate to solving this problem across the
whole of the railway network. The current arrangements are that
our franchise agreements outline a number of requirements, and
if there is a standard in place at the moment that is where it
sits, and so we have things like in some cases secure station
accreditation, provision of CCTV, help points, et cetera.
That does feature in some franchise agreements but it does not
feature in all of them. So there is some inconsistency.
Q8 Chairman: I am going to stop you
there. If there are 2,500 railway stations and only 323 of them
are accredited under the Secure Stations Scheme, it is not a very
good percentage, is it?
Mr Franks: No, but I do not think
the Secure Station approach as it is currently set out and as
it currently works is appropriate for all stations.
Q9 Chairman: Why?
Mr Franks: It can be bureaucratic
and it can be very expensive to introduce. I will give you another
example.
Q10 Chairman: No, do not leave that
one. Bureaucratic in what sense? If you have not got compulsory
standards to comply with why is the system bureaucratic and why
has it cost you a lot of money?
Mr Franks: I will give you one
example. If you take a very small station today, if you want to
get Secure Station accreditation, you have to carry out passenger
surveys, you have to have a crime reduction plan, you have to
put in CCTV, and there are a number of other requirements, for
example the design of the station itself. In some cases, the cost
of doing that would be far too much and it would be better to
come up with a different approach to managing the problem at that
station. You asked earlier on about why does National Express
prefer something more prescriptive. I think in some cases if at
the outset of a franchise it was very clear to bidders what they
were bidding for and it was clear what was required at individual
stations, then all bidders would bid for that franchise against
that specification. If that specification, as I say, was clear,
there would be an equal bid from everybody.
Q11 Chairman: How many stations do
you actually manage?
Mr Franks: We manage directly 488.
Q12 Chairman: How many of those are
accredited?
Mr Franks: I have got the details
here somewhere. I can give that you information a bit later.
Q13 Chairman: It would be what, a
majority of them or a tiny percentage of them, given that you
have got this feeling about it?
Mr Franks: It is a relatively small
percentage of the stations. I think there is a real opportunity
to improve the Secure Station approach to life.
Q14 Chairman: So what would you want
that would encourage you to seek accreditation for all of your
stations?
Mr Franks: I think what we would
need to do is perhaps not have a pass/fail approach to Secure
Station accreditation; we ought to have something like a star
rating. An approach which we would support at National Express
Group would be to say at a small station, where perhaps we provide
help points and we provide a plan to monitor and manage crime,
it might be suitable for a one-star rating, whereas at a larger
station where we are providing the full gambit of facilities—staffing
around the clock, the design is adequate, CCTV coverage and the
other requirements that are currently set down in Secure Station
accreditation—in that scenario we would perhaps get a five-star
rating. In that arrangement we could work towards accreditation
of all stations.
Q15 Graham Stringer: Can I just follow
that up. Certainly the specialist press seem to be surprised by
the Minister Derek Twigg's answer to a Parliamentary question
last month where he said in new franchises he was looking on a
station-by-station basis at security. From what you were saying
in answer to the Chairman, does that mean to say you would be
happy with that approach?
Mr Franks: If it is specified at
the outset in the invitation to tender for that franchise, everybody
would be bidding against that. Today if National Express Group
were to bid for a franchise on the basis of Secure Station accreditation
in the franchise, we would not win the bid.
Q16 Graham Stringer: Do you think
that the Minister has enough information to be able to specify
in the franchises exactly what is required, both for health and
safety reasons and personal security at stations?
Mr Franks: They would need to talk
to the current operator to get that information because obviously
it requires surveys and risk assessments at stations. There are
a number of factors that are relevant.
Q17 Graham Stringer: From the information
that you have, is the Department for Transport collecting that
information at the present time on each individual station for
which you are responsible?
Mr Franks: The next franchise that
is going out to tender will be the current Silverlink Metro franchise
which will become the North London concessions part of Transport
for London's remit. We are providing information for that franchise.
Q18 Graham Stringer: On a station-by-station
basis?
Mr Franks: Yes, there is a specific
requirement from the Mayor for that information.
Q19 Mrs Ellman: What proportion of
stations has CCTV? Perhaps Mr Muir could give us the reply across
the network and then the individual operators can tell us for
their operations.
Mr Muir: In London about three-quarters
to 80% of stations have CCTV.
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