Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
MR GEORGE
MUIR, MR
DAVID FRANKS,
MR IAN
DOBBS, MR
ANDREW HAINES,
MR KEITH
LUDEMAN AND
MR ROBIN
GISBY
19 APRIL 2006
Q80 Chairman: But does that mean
that you would consider some form of private force if you all
seem to be seriously considering employing—
Mr Gisby: I am not sure about
that.
Q81 Mr Wilshire: Could we get the
answer from each of the six?
Mr Ludeman: British Transport
Police has done a first-class job for the railways because it
is a specialist force and it is a national force.
Q82 Chairman: Is that a yes or a
no?
Mr Ludeman: I am working towards
one—but money is important and we have to live within our
means. We have looked at other means of expanding the number of
people visible in our stations.
Q83 Chairman: So is it a yes or a
no, Mr Ludeman?
Mr Ludeman: We do not want the
BTP merged with the Home Office force. We want the specialism
of a force that knows what the railway needs to continue.
Mr Haines: I do not think it is
a yes or no answer. It would depend on the terms. I think there
is real value in retaining the British Transport Police but it
would depend on the terms of policing the stations.
Mr Dobbs: We do not want a merger
but we believe that there is probably a modified role that makes
their presence on stations even more effective.
Mr Franks: Our position is the
same as Mr Dobbs'.
Mr Muir: My position is the same
as the gentleman's on my left.
Chairman: I would hope it was, Mr Muir,
that is why I did not bother to ask you!
Clive Efford: Is there anything more
that the British Transport Police could do to improve safety on
our railways? It is an open question to any of you. There are
no burning issues amongst any of the train operators?
Q84 Chairman: Nothing they do not
do? Mr Muir, you are going to take it upon yourself?
Mr Muir: If I can recover from
the last question. Yes, I think we can do more in local policing.
There is more to be done in co-ordinating staff—train operator
staff and BTP staff—locally under the rubric of neighbourhood
policing.
Q85 Chairman: You mean you would
like railway staff trained like policemen?
Mr Gisby: No I did not mean that.
I meant more careful, organised, thought-through collaboration
at a local level between us and the BTP: "can I get more
with the resources we have got?"
Q86 Chairman: I do not want to keep
you very much longer, gentlemen. Tell me about crime against staff;
what measures are you taking to protect your staff against crime?
Mr Ludeman: Railway crime against
our staff obviously means assaults and there are a number of different
initiatives we have followed over the years. If you look at the
number of assaults at the moment, it is largely a London and South
East issue.
Q87 Chairman: How many people have
you prosecuted over the last two years?
Mr Ludeman: I could not give you
the figure for prosecutions.
Q88 Chairman: Would every one of
you give me a short note on the numbers of people who have been
prosecuted for assaults against staff, and if there is any special
classification of those perhaps you could provide the Committee
with that as well.
Mr Ludeman: There is, Chairman,
a good news story in that over the last 12 months we have seen
the tide turn gradually on the number of assaults.
Q89 Chairman: Is that anything to
do with the Rail Personal Security Group?
Mr Ludeman: I think it has got
to do with the amount of investment that my colleagues and I have
described to you today in our stations and on our trains. It is
to do with the training we have instigated with our staff, assault
avoidance techniques and the like, changes to the design of stations
to improve the environment, but also at a national level the group
that you have just mentioned, which we believe is a first-class
group. There are plenty of examples of initiatives that that group
is involved in that enable best practice to be shared amongst
the TOCs which has seen the number of assaults on our staff of
a serious nature at long last start to reduce.
Q90 Chairman: So you have got a target
for the reduction of assaults on staff?
Mr Ludeman: We set ourselves our
own targets within each company, but it is always too many.
Q91 Chairman: If you could tell us
that as well.
Mr Ludeman: We could do.
Q92 Chairman: Who can tell us about
the multi-operator stations and the difficulty of explaining to
people who is actually in charge?
Mr Haines: I am happy to pick
that one up.
Q93 Chairman: Mr Haines, how do you
tell the public that you are in charge?
Mr Haines: The relationship with
passengers is with the train operators. I think that is pretty
clear on most stations. As part of every franchise agreement you
have to have details of who runs the stations, who provides the
services, contact details for the company, and the local manager.
That is very clear. First Group's policy is to brand everything
very clearly "First".
Q94 Chairman: So why are the public
so dismayed because they feel nobody is responsible for their
safety?
Mr Haines: I have not seen evidence
of that dismay. If you look at the national passenger satisfaction
surveys you will find that for some of our companies three% of
people are dissatisfied with station security.
Q95 Chairman: Do you have a co-ordinated
approach across the whole of the train operating companies?
Mr Haines: Yes and we are developing
that further. Mr Franks has already offered the document that
shows you our best practice.
Q96 Chairman: Have you also agreed
to things like standardised signing?
Mr Haines: I would have to get
back to you on whether or not that is an industry-wide standard.
Mr Muir: We have a Code of Practice
on standardised signing.
Q97 Chairman: You make sure that
all your members adhere to that Code of Practice?
Mr Muir: Not yet.
Q98 Chairman: When are you going
to make sure they adhere to it?
Mr Muir: When they upgrade their
signing—
Q99 Chairman: Mr Muir, forgive me
but some of our stations are not only very ancient but are not
going to be upgraded for many years, are they?
Mr Muir: You are correct.
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