Select Committee on Transport Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)

MR GEORGE MUIR, MR DAVID FRANKS, MR IAN DOBBS, MR ANDREW HAINES, MR KEITH LUDEMAN AND MR ROBIN GISBY

19 APRIL 2006

  Q80  Chairman: But does that mean that you would consider some form of private force if you all seem to be seriously considering employing—

  Mr Gisby: I am not sure about that.

  Q81  Mr Wilshire: Could we get the answer from each of the six?

  Mr Ludeman: British Transport Police has done a first-class job for the railways because it is a specialist force and it is a national force.

  Q82  Chairman: Is that a yes or a no?

  Mr Ludeman: I am working towards one—but money is important and we have to live within our means. We have looked at other means of expanding the number of people visible in our stations.

  Q83  Chairman: So is it a yes or a no, Mr Ludeman?

  Mr Ludeman: We do not want the BTP merged with the Home Office force. We want the specialism of a force that knows what the railway needs to continue.

  Mr Haines: I do not think it is a yes or no answer. It would depend on the terms. I think there is real value in retaining the British Transport Police but it would depend on the terms of policing the stations.

  Mr Dobbs: We do not want a merger but we believe that there is probably a modified role that makes their presence on stations even more effective.

  Mr Franks: Our position is the same as Mr Dobbs'.

  Mr Muir: My position is the same as the gentleman's on my left.

  Chairman: I would hope it was, Mr Muir, that is why I did not bother to ask you!

  Clive Efford: Is there anything more that the British Transport Police could do to improve safety on our railways? It is an open question to any of you. There are no burning issues amongst any of the train operators?

  Q84  Chairman: Nothing they do not do? Mr Muir, you are going to take it upon yourself?

  Mr Muir: If I can recover from the last question. Yes, I think we can do more in local policing. There is more to be done in co-ordinating staff—train operator staff and BTP staff—locally under the rubric of neighbourhood policing.

  Q85  Chairman: You mean you would like railway staff trained like policemen?

  Mr Gisby: No I did not mean that. I meant more careful, organised, thought-through collaboration at a local level between us and the BTP: "can I get more with the resources we have got?"

  Q86  Chairman: I do not want to keep you very much longer, gentlemen. Tell me about crime against staff; what measures are you taking to protect your staff against crime?

  Mr Ludeman: Railway crime against our staff obviously means assaults and there are a number of different initiatives we have followed over the years. If you look at the number of assaults at the moment, it is largely a London and South East issue.

  Q87  Chairman: How many people have you prosecuted over the last two years?

  Mr Ludeman: I could not give you the figure for prosecutions.

  Q88  Chairman: Would every one of you give me a short note on the numbers of people who have been prosecuted for assaults against staff, and if there is any special classification of those perhaps you could provide the Committee with that as well.

  Mr Ludeman: There is, Chairman, a good news story in that over the last 12 months we have seen the tide turn gradually on the number of assaults.

  Q89  Chairman: Is that anything to do with the Rail Personal Security Group?

  Mr Ludeman: I think it has got to do with the amount of investment that my colleagues and I have described to you today in our stations and on our trains. It is to do with the training we have instigated with our staff, assault avoidance techniques and the like, changes to the design of stations to improve the environment, but also at a national level the group that you have just mentioned, which we believe is a first-class group. There are plenty of examples of initiatives that that group is involved in that enable best practice to be shared amongst the TOCs which has seen the number of assaults on our staff of a serious nature at long last start to reduce.

  Q90  Chairman: So you have got a target for the reduction of assaults on staff?

  Mr Ludeman: We set ourselves our own targets within each company, but it is always too many.

  Q91  Chairman: If you could tell us that as well.

  Mr Ludeman: We could do.

  Q92  Chairman: Who can tell us about the multi-operator stations and the difficulty of explaining to people who is actually in charge?

  Mr Haines: I am happy to pick that one up.

  Q93  Chairman: Mr Haines, how do you tell the public that you are in charge?

  Mr Haines: The relationship with passengers is with the train operators. I think that is pretty clear on most stations. As part of every franchise agreement you have to have details of who runs the stations, who provides the services, contact details for the company, and the local manager. That is very clear. First Group's policy is to brand everything very clearly "First".

  Q94  Chairman: So why are the public so dismayed because they feel nobody is responsible for their safety?

  Mr Haines: I have not seen evidence of that dismay. If you look at the national passenger satisfaction surveys you will find that for some of our companies three% of people are dissatisfied with station security.

  Q95  Chairman: Do you have a co-ordinated approach across the whole of the train operating companies?

  Mr Haines: Yes and we are developing that further. Mr Franks has already offered the document that shows you our best practice.

  Q96  Chairman: Have you also agreed to things like standardised signing?

  Mr Haines: I would have to get back to you on whether or not that is an industry-wide standard.

  Mr Muir: We have a Code of Practice on standardised signing.

  Q97  Chairman: You make sure that all your members adhere to that Code of Practice?

  Mr Muir: Not yet.

  Q98  Chairman: When are you going to make sure they adhere to it?

  Mr Muir: When they upgrade their signing—

  Q99  Chairman: Mr Muir, forgive me but some of our stations are not only very ancient but are not going to be upgraded for many years, are they?

  Mr Muir: You are correct.


 
previous page contents next page

House of Commons home page Parliament home page House of Lords home page search page enquiries index

© Parliamentary copyright 2006
Prepared 25 May 2006