Examination of Witnesses (Questions 108-119)
CHIEF CONSTABLE
IAN JOHNSTON
CBE QM BSC (HONS),
MR LEN
PORTER, MR
COLIN FOXALL
AND MS
CHRISTINE KNIGHTS
19 APRIL 2006
Q108 Chairman: May I apologise to you
for keeping you waiting. I am sure that the quality of your evidence
will have improved like good wines with a slight detention. Starting
with the Chief Constable, would you be kind enough to identify
yourselves for the record.
Chief Constable Johnston: Ian
Johnston, Chief Constable for the British Transport Police.
Mr Porter: Len Porter, Chief Executive
of the Rail Safety and Standards Board.
Mr Foxall: Colin Foxall, Chairman
of Passenger Focus.
Ms Knights: Christine Knights,
Board Member for Passenger Focus.
Q109 Chairman: Do any of you particularly
want to make one or two remarks before you start or are you prepared
to go straight into questions?
Chief Constable Johnston: I would
like to make just a couple of very short points, if I may. First,
ensuring the personal safety of passengers is very important for
BTP. About half of the 79,000 notifiable offences committed on
the railway do occur on stations so stations are obviously an
important part of it. We recognise there is a very real sense
of fear experienced by many passengers. Obviously there has got
to be absolutely no complacency here but it is worth noting that
in comparative terms the railways are a reasonably safe place.
There were, for example, nearly as many crimes in the Borough
of Westminster as there were on the entire railway system throughout
England and Wales last year.
Q110 Chairman: And most of those
were fraud! Do carry on.
Chief Constable Johnston: What
I think we need is a multi-agency strategy which does a number
of things: first, something that positions stations more at the
heart of local communities, and I think that is very important;
something which influences the physical environment more effectively
than it does at the moment; something which targets initiatives
to key areas rather than the ones that are easiest to do; something
which expands complementary policing, something which enhances
the neighbourhood policing style you have heard mentioned here
already; and something which raises the significance of personal
safety within the franchising arrangements. We are very keen to
take part in any ideas that emerge from here.
Q111 Chairman: Chief Constable, it
is very clear that some of the train operating companies are very
much opposed to the imposition of standards and they think a voluntary
system will do instead. They think that high standards of safety
are in their own commercial interests and therefore they do not
agree with compulsory methods. Do you think that is an argument
borne out by evidence?
Chief Constable Johnston: I think
some have taken their responsibilities very seriously. South West
Trains pioneered the use of TravelSafe officers and I thought
that was a very good initiative which we have certainly found
very, very helpful in supporting us. I think the point Mr Franks
made about an even playing field for all the operators could probably
only be achieved through arrangements which were mandatory and
supported by legislation.
Q112 Chairman: So are you saying—?
Chief Constable Johnston: I would
be for a mandatory arrangement.
Q113 Chairman: Does anybody else
want to comment on that?
Mr Foxall: I did want to make
a very short statement. Can I do that in three quick points.
Q114 Chairman: Please do.
Mr Foxall: First of all, could
I explain I have asked Christine Knights to join us because she
is one of the board members who specialises in this area so I
hope her evidence will be helpful to the Committee in quite a
broad way. There are three short things I wanted to say. There
are a large number of initiatives and regimes in play on this
subject of personal safety in station facilities generally, but
the problem is that it is a patchwork of things. What we need
is a strategy or vision to guide things. We lack a controlling
mind, body or a person to do this. I hear that the DfT is producing
a single person to look after policy. I think that is likely to
be a good thing but we need to watch quite carefully to see if
it makes progress. The third point is that with all the regimes
that we have around we want to make sure they are designed to
meet passenger needs because you can have lots of regimes but
if it amounts to ticking boxes and checking things on forms, we
want to make sure the things that are done in terms of personal
safety, things on stations for example, actually work. The last
thing I would say is both Ms Knights and I sit on the BTP Authority
but we are here today plainly as Passenger Focus.
Q115 Chairman: Let me be quite clear,
are you saying there should be fewer standards but they should
be compulsory and they should be standardised?
Mr Foxall: I think we would like
to see it clearer. We would like for there not to be so many conflicting
different sorts of schemes all over the place.
Q116 Chairman: I accept that and
that is clear but what I am saying to you is do they need to be
compulsory standards across all the train operating companies
because it is clear they are all over the place.
Mr Foxall: I am really torn in
answering this question.
Q117 Chairman: Well then forgive
me, Mr Foxall, I will go to somebody who does not feel torn.
Mr Porter: I will give you the
answer. They should be compulsory but we need to be careful that
the compulsion does not turn into simply ticking boxes. That is
my point.
Q118 Chairman: I accept that but
Ms Knights, then, are you saying it would be possible to have
a set of compulsory standards as long as they were agreed right
the way across the network and as long people knew they corresponded
to reality, which is what Mr Foxall is actually saying?
Ms Knights: I think there needs
to be a set of standards which are appropriate for the circumstances
of each station.
Q119 Chairman: Wait a minute. Are
you saying we need a ground base of standards with individuality
built in for each individual station?
Ms Knights: No. At the moment
what we are looking at is passenger satisfaction being lower in
medium-sized and small stations and what we are generally getting
through the franchise is requirements for certain standards at
the larger stations where there is high crime and high footfall.
If we consider the passenger satisfaction, I think what we need
is a set of basic standards but with additional or lesser standards
in the different sizes and types of station.
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