Select Committee on Transport Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 161-179)

DEREK TWIGG MP

19 APRIL 2006

  Q161 Chairman: Good afternoon, Minister, we are very grateful to you for coming.

  Derek Twigg: Good afternoon.

  Q162  Chairman: I assumed you engineered the vote so that you could make an entry on a high note.

  Derek Twigg: Once a whip always a whip I think, Mrs Dunwoody.

  Q163  Chairman: Could I ask you to identify yourself?

  Derek Twigg: Yes, I am Derek Twigg, Minister for Railways.

  Q164  Chairman: Did you have something you particularly wanted to tell us, Mr Twigg?

  Derek Twigg: Yes, I would like to make a short statement before you ask me questions. Clearly, I believe this is a very important issue and I welcome the investigation by this Committee. I think it is important to put it in context as well. We are an increasingly successful railway. There is £87 million being invested a week now and a billion passengers so a growing railway. We want to see that growing railway continue and therefore personal safety is an important part of that in terms of encouraging people onto the railway. As you will know, Mrs Dunwoody, we have put in place a new structure now with the new DfT rail group put in place and of course Network Rail have responsibility for performance in the TOCs service division and of course they have the most responsibility for what happens at stations in terms of the management and operation. As I have said in my submission, we intend to create a post to co-ordinate station issues within the new Department for Transport rail group.

  Q165  Chairman: Forgive me, you "intend to create", future tense?

  Derek Twigg: Yes, we are in the process of doing that, we have not done that yet because a number of responsibilities are spread across different parts of the divisions. In the new franchises, and South Western in particular, which is the one we have just done and sent out, we will be putting much greater stipulation in that in terms of secure station accreditation, and, of course, also we have done some research which will report later this year in terms of tackling crime at high crime stations in socially excluded areas.

  Q166  Chairman: When could we expect that?

  Derek Twigg: Some time later this year.

  Q167  Chairman: Thank you very much. Some of our train operators strongly oppose the imposition of standards by Government because they think a voluntary approach is better. They say high standards of passenger safety are in their own best commercial interests and therefore compulsory measures are simply unnecessary. Are these arguments borne out by the state of passenger safety in stations across the network?

  Derek Twigg: I think it is true to say that comparing crime, stations and safety is much less of a problem in wider society generally. However, it is an important issue that we have got to tackle and there are a variety of ways that we can do this. In terms of the train operator companies, I think they are best placed to determine what needs to be done at individual stations because there is a variety of different types of stations with different throughput and different ages, et cetera, around the country. Obviously that is correct but also, as Government, I think we have a responsibility to see that we do work with the industry and help standards improve in terms of personal safety of passengers on the railway.

  Q168  Chairman: Does that mean you do approve of compulsory standards or does that mean you do not approve of compulsory standards?

  Derek Twigg: What we say is that one size does not fit all.

  Q169  Chairman: I understand there are lots and lots and lots of train stations, in fact I sometimes think I have been to every one, but what I am asking is something rather simpler. Some train operating companies think that there should be a degree of compulsion and some train companies think that there should not. What is the attitude of Her Majesty's Government?

  Derek Twigg: We do not think we should compel every single train operating company to do something at every single station. We believe there are different remedies and approaches to stations.

  Q170  Chairman: So you do not believe that there should be compulsory standards?

  Derek Twigg: Not for every station. What we are saying is that the secure stations accreditation programme should continue to grow and that is why in the South Western—

  Q171  Chairman: How many stations does that cover?

  Derek Twigg: It is roughly about 250 stations at present.

  Q172  Chairman: How many stations are there on the United Kingdom railway system?

  Derek Twigg: As you are aware, there are 2,500 stations.

  Q173  Chairman: Would you think that was a satisfactory percentage?

  Derek Twigg: First of all, I agree that we need to improve on that and clearly—

  Q174  Chairman: Anything other than 200 when we have got 2,000-odd stations would be an improvement.

  Derek Twigg: We want to do that. That was why we launched it last year and we have had over 100 new accreditations since then. I would also like to say, Chairman, that what is important here is that the stations that are accredited account for most of the throughput of passengers on our network.

  Q175  Chairman: Wait a minute, say that again.

  Derek Twigg: Most of the stations that are currently accredited are the busiest stations. Not all of them, but most of them.

  Q176  Chairman: You are saying that therefore we do not have to worry too much?

  Derek Twigg: No, I did not say that. What I am trying to say is in terms of the total coverage of people using the stations it is greater than 250. If you look at 250 stations in isolation compared with 2,500 then clearly I can see the point you are making and clearly we want to improve on that but what I am saying is that the stations, particularly the Network Rail stations, are some of the busiest stations in the country and, therefore, most of the passengers going through them are covered by the accredited stations scheme.

  Q177  Chairman: The difficulty is, Minister, they can get on in those stations but where do they get off?

  Derek Twigg: That is why I agree with you that we do need to see more secure stations accreditation. That is why, for instance, in the South Western franchise documentation we have just sent out we are asking the bidders to cover 80% of the footfall through stations with secure stations accreditation status and also every station is surveyed with the BTP.

  Q178  Chairman: So you are moving towards a tougher line with the franchise agreements you use to lever up safety standards?

  Derek Twigg: Yes. We have not set it at 100%, we think the figure of around 80% of footfall going through stations is a reasonable figure. We have got to look in terms of what is the best option for different stations and for a lot of stations it would be suitable to go through that process but for others it may not be. For instance, it would depend how well used stations are. Some stations already have security installed.

  Q179  Chairman: I think we have been round that bit of the track before. Are you saying one single body should hold overall responsibility for station development?

  Derek Twigg: No, station responsibility is clearly with the train operating companies and Network Rail when it is their stations. As a Government we want to work with them and see improvements at the stations and that is why we are doing some of the things I outlined to you a few minutes ago.


 
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