Examination of Witnesses (Questions 161-179)
DEREK TWIGG
MP
19 APRIL 2006
Q161 Chairman: Good afternoon, Minister,
we are very grateful to you for coming.
Derek Twigg: Good afternoon.
Q162 Chairman: I assumed you engineered
the vote so that you could make an entry on a high note.
Derek Twigg: Once a whip always
a whip I think, Mrs Dunwoody.
Q163 Chairman: Could I ask you to
identify yourself?
Derek Twigg: Yes, I am Derek Twigg,
Minister for Railways.
Q164 Chairman: Did you have something
you particularly wanted to tell us, Mr Twigg?
Derek Twigg: Yes, I would like
to make a short statement before you ask me questions. Clearly,
I believe this is a very important issue and I welcome the investigation
by this Committee. I think it is important to put it in context
as well. We are an increasingly successful railway. There is £87
million being invested a week now and a billion passengers so
a growing railway. We want to see that growing railway continue
and therefore personal safety is an important part of that in
terms of encouraging people onto the railway. As you will know,
Mrs Dunwoody, we have put in place a new structure now with the
new DfT rail group put in place and of course Network Rail have
responsibility for performance in the TOCs service division and
of course they have the most responsibility for what happens at
stations in terms of the management and operation. As I have said
in my submission, we intend to create a post to co-ordinate station
issues within the new Department for Transport rail group.
Q165 Chairman: Forgive me, you "intend
to create", future tense?
Derek Twigg: Yes, we are in the
process of doing that, we have not done that yet because a number
of responsibilities are spread across different parts of the divisions.
In the new franchises, and South Western in particular, which
is the one we have just done and sent out, we will be putting
much greater stipulation in that in terms of secure station accreditation,
and, of course, also we have done some research which will report
later this year in terms of tackling crime at high crime stations
in socially excluded areas.
Q166 Chairman: When could we expect
that?
Derek Twigg: Some time later this
year.
Q167 Chairman: Thank you very much.
Some of our train operators strongly oppose the imposition of
standards by Government because they think a voluntary approach
is better. They say high standards of passenger safety are in
their own best commercial interests and therefore compulsory measures
are simply unnecessary. Are these arguments borne out by the state
of passenger safety in stations across the network?
Derek Twigg: I think it is true
to say that comparing crime, stations and safety is much less
of a problem in wider society generally. However, it is an important
issue that we have got to tackle and there are a variety of ways
that we can do this. In terms of the train operator companies,
I think they are best placed to determine what needs to be done
at individual stations because there is a variety of different
types of stations with different throughput and different ages,
et cetera, around the country. Obviously that is correct but also,
as Government, I think we have a responsibility to see that we
do work with the industry and help standards improve in terms
of personal safety of passengers on the railway.
Q168 Chairman: Does that mean you
do approve of compulsory standards or does that mean you do not
approve of compulsory standards?
Derek Twigg: What we say is that
one size does not fit all.
Q169 Chairman: I understand there
are lots and lots and lots of train stations, in fact I sometimes
think I have been to every one, but what I am asking is something
rather simpler. Some train operating companies think that there
should be a degree of compulsion and some train companies think
that there should not. What is the attitude of Her Majesty's Government?
Derek Twigg: We do not think we
should compel every single train operating company to do something
at every single station. We believe there are different remedies
and approaches to stations.
Q170 Chairman: So you do not believe
that there should be compulsory standards?
Derek Twigg: Not for every station.
What we are saying is that the secure stations accreditation programme
should continue to grow and that is why in the South Western
Q171 Chairman: How many stations
does that cover?
Derek Twigg: It is roughly about
250 stations at present.
Q172 Chairman: How many stations
are there on the United Kingdom railway system?
Derek Twigg: As you are aware,
there are 2,500 stations.
Q173 Chairman: Would you think that
was a satisfactory percentage?
Derek Twigg: First of all, I agree
that we need to improve on that and clearly
Q174 Chairman: Anything other than
200 when we have got 2,000-odd stations would be an improvement.
Derek Twigg: We want to do that.
That was why we launched it last year and we have had over 100
new accreditations since then. I would also like to say, Chairman,
that what is important here is that the stations that are accredited
account for most of the throughput of passengers on our network.
Q175 Chairman: Wait a minute, say
that again.
Derek Twigg: Most of the stations
that are currently accredited are the busiest stations. Not all
of them, but most of them.
Q176 Chairman: You are saying that
therefore we do not have to worry too much?
Derek Twigg: No, I did not say
that. What I am trying to say is in terms of the total coverage
of people using the stations it is greater than 250. If you look
at 250 stations in isolation compared with 2,500 then clearly
I can see the point you are making and clearly we want to improve
on that but what I am saying is that the stations, particularly
the Network Rail stations, are some of the busiest stations in
the country and, therefore, most of the passengers going through
them are covered by the accredited stations scheme.
Q177 Chairman: The difficulty is,
Minister, they can get on in those stations but where do they
get off?
Derek Twigg: That is why I agree
with you that we do need to see more secure stations accreditation.
That is why, for instance, in the South Western franchise documentation
we have just sent out we are asking the bidders to cover 80% of
the footfall through stations with secure stations accreditation
status and also every station is surveyed with the BTP.
Q178 Chairman: So you are moving
towards a tougher line with the franchise agreements you use to
lever up safety standards?
Derek Twigg: Yes. We have not
set it at 100%, we think the figure of around 80% of footfall
going through stations is a reasonable figure. We have got to
look in terms of what is the best option for different stations
and for a lot of stations it would be suitable to go through that
process but for others it may not be. For instance, it would depend
how well used stations are. Some stations already have security
installed.
Q179 Chairman: I think we have been
round that bit of the track before. Are you saying one single
body should hold overall responsibility for station development?
Derek Twigg: No, station responsibility
is clearly with the train operating companies and Network Rail
when it is their stations. As a Government we want to work with
them and see improvements at the stations and that is why we are
doing some of the things I outlined to you a few minutes ago.
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