Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180-199)
DEREK TWIGG
MP
19 APRIL 2006
Q180 Chairman: So you are prepared
to be tougher when franchise agreements are being used but you
do not think we should have a single body and you are not looking
for minimum requirements to set common standards and requirements
for all stations?
Derek Twigg: As I tried to make
clear, and maybe I did not and I apologise for that, we believe
that—
Q181 Chairman: It is probably just
me, I am easily confused.
Derek Twigg: The best people to
determine the security in terms of what needs doing and what can
be developed at stations, working with the likes of the BTP, would
be the train operating companies because they manage and run the
stations every day. We are not in the process of managing and
running stations.
Q182 Chairman: I do not think we
actually asked you that, Minister. I think we asked you something
a lot simpler. You do not actually run the trains but you do require
them all to comply with certain safety standards, do you not?
Derek Twigg: Yes.
Q183 Chairman: You do not actually
run the stations but why should you not ask them to comply with
certain safety standards?
Derek Twigg: That is why we are
looking at how we can continue to improve on the secure stations
status for accredited stations and why, as I mentioned a few moments
ago, we are looking at the South Western franchise and how we
can improve that in the franchises in the future. As I say, I
do not believe we can be prescriptive about every station because
there is such a variety of difference of stations.
Chairman: You have been kind enough to
explain that three times now.
Q184 Mrs Ellman: Passenger surveys
show very clearly the importance that passengers attach to visible
staffing at stations. What is the Government doing to act on that?
Derek Twigg: I would answer that
by saying there are a number of options for improving security
at stations. Staffing will be one and where train operating companies
think that is something they wish to do clearly they will do that,
but it is not always the case that having staffing at stations
necessarily mitigates crime or, in fact, deals with a particular
problem. For instance, someone sitting in a ticket office at a
station may not have a good handle on what is happening on the
platform or on the periphery of the station where a lot of crime
takes place, so it might not necessarily be the best option. There
is a variety of options in terms of CCTV, information on the platforms,
lighting, and mirrors in dark alleyways.
Q185 Mrs Ellman: There are all those
things but let us just stop for a moment and look at the staffing
issue because the surveys that have taken place, including those
commissioned by the Department, show what a major factor visible
staffing on stations is for passengers travelling. Is that not
something that you would respond to as a Government, as the Minister?
Derek Twigg: We would ask in terms
of the whole security approach, the personal security approach,
what is the best option to take it forward. It may be the case
in certain stations that additional staffing may be the best option
but, having said that, some of the highest crime stations do have
more staff than others. On a rural station with a very small number
of people going through it every day, would you decide that was
the best way to spend money on security, would it not be better
doing something else?
Q186 Mrs Ellman: Are you saying that
the Government does not single out staffing at stations as an
item of particular importance?
Derek Twigg: It does have an importance
but it is a—
Q187 Mrs Ellman: Is it of particular
importance?
Derek Twigg: Staffing can play
a very important role, the most important role in some stations,
but there has to be a variety of measures. This is why the train
operating companies, who have to run and manage the stations,
are the best placed people to determine that.
Q188 Mrs Ellman: Do you not think
they might be tempted to look at cost rather than what the public
want?
Derek Twigg: There will always
be an issue about cost in terms of what is affordable. You will
know, and I do not need to go through it, and I know the Chairman
would not let me go through it, the substantial amount of money
that the Government has put into the railways in the last seven
or eight years in terms of the improvements that have been brought
about. It is a judgment that has to be made on the ground as well
in terms of what is the best way of taking forward security at
particular stations.
Q189 Mrs Ellman: Has the Department
made any assessment of the cost of there being staffing at stations
while trains are running?
Derek Twigg: No.
Q190 Mrs Ellman: That is not an issue
you have looked at?
Derek Twigg: No.
Q191 Mrs Ellman: What about safety
of rail staff against crime, what has the Government done about
that?
Derek Twigg: Again, the prime
responsibility is for the train operating companies and Network
Rail who employ those staff in terms of security. I am sure the
people you have had previously before the Committee today will
have made clear what their approach is to that. It is very important
that there is good security for staff, they are delivering an
excellent service and play an important role in developing and
improving the rail service. In terms of the civil issues, in terms
of CCTV, lighting, how the management of security is done, that
is for the train operating companies or the station operator.
I know that DNA packs have been given to some staff in recent
times.
Q192 Mrs Ellman: Are there any targets
the Government has set for reducing attacks on staff?
Derek Twigg: There is no target
that we have because we do not have prime responsibility for that,
that is for the train operating companies and Network Rail.
Q193 Mrs Ellman: The Government have
not taken any particular interest in that?
Derek Twigg: No, we do take an
interest in terms of security as a whole on the railway and security
of passengers and the staff and that is why we have invested significant
amounts of money in the railway over the last eight years and
why you see the improvements in security that have taken place
around the network.
Q194 Chairman: Minister, that money
you have invested over the last eight years has not been specifically
targeted towards safety, has it? Is there any element of that
that you could point to where you have insisted on certain safety
improvements?
Derek Twigg: Obviously there has
been a whole range of expenditure on various things on the railway
and some of that will have gone into security but there is also
other money that has come into dealing with security and improving
stations in terms of local authorities, for instance, in Crime
Reduction Partnerships.
Q195 Chairman: You were the one who
was insisting on the amount of money that has gone into the railway
system, and I agree with you absolutely, I think you are doing
extraordinarily well, but I am interested to know which bit has
been targeted at security?
Derek Twigg: I am saying as part
of the overall package some of that money has been spent on security.
Q196 Graham Stringer: I would like
to go back to the points you were making about putting requirements
in the franchises to improve the security at stations. I have
got a copy of the answer you gave to Peter Luff last month about
putting those requirements into the franchise. How do you get
the information that enables you to put that information into
the franchise?
Derek Twigg: If it is helpful,
Chairman, I am happy to read out the small paragraph of what was
said in the South Western franchise which would deal with Mr Stringer's
points.
Q197 Chairman: Please do.
Derek Twigg: It says: "It
is proposed that the base case specification should require bidders
to deliver secure station accreditation for those stations with
80% of the franchise footfall. The bidders will be required to
assess with the BTP the security crime risk at all stations in
the franchise and ensure that their proposals covering 80% of
the footfall include all identified high risk locations".
Q198 Graham Stringer: So you are
asking the bidders to go through the process?
Derek Twigg: With the BTP.
Q199 Graham Stringer: You yourself
do not have any of that information by which you can identify
particular crime hotspots on stations?
Derek Twigg: We have not got not
statistical information on all stations but we will get the information
back as part of the bidding process.
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