Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-219)
DEREK TWIGG
MP
19 APRIL 2006
Q200 Graham Stringer: Do you have,
like the Mayor of London has, a list of crime-ridden stations?
I do not want to get into problems of order of magnitude, we know
there will be more crime on Euston and the big London stations
than anywhere else. If we take the huge Manchester, Birmingham,
London stations out, do you have a target of crime-ridden stations
throughout the network that you would like to do something about?
Derek Twigg: Not in that sense,
no, because it is for the train operating companies as the managers
of the stations, or Network Rail, to develop the approach to dealing
with crime. Clearly the secure stations accreditation process
is one way we support that and want to see that improved and that
does cover some of the biggest stations in terms of the greatest
footfall going through those stations. What we are looking at
as well, as I mentioned in my opening statement, is we are doing
some research looking at those stations with the highest crime
in the most deprived areas to learn lessons from some of those
stations that already have accreditation status but also to look
at those stations that have not and compare issues and look at
what can be done to improve it. They can also be linked into wider
deprivation issues and issues outside of the stations which we
need to look at. There are things we are looking at and developing.
Q201 Graham Stringer: You have commissioned
research into crime on the railway system, the stations. Would
you care to share with the Committee any of the early findings
of that investigation?
Derek Twigg: Ministers have not
got that yet, we hope to have that later this year. Clearly we
are happy to share that with the Committee when we have that information.
Q202 Graham Stringer: Presumably
this has happened to you as a Minister. Take Clitheroe station
in the North West, if the Member for that area wrote to you and
said there had been five serious attacks on different people on
that station, would you feel it was your responsibility to do
something about it at that stage?
Derek Twigg: Clearly we would
want to raise that with the train operating company and the BTP,
who I am sure in that instance would already be aware of the situation.
Again, it would be worth exploring with them whether they wanted
to go for secure station accreditation. As you know, the Member
of Parliament can be a very important implement in terms of ensuring
some changes are made. For instance, with secure station accreditation
the Member of Parliament is always informed who generally—not
always, but generally—takes an interest in what is going
on. There are opportunities there to try and do things but, as
I say, it is for the train operating companies who manage and
run the stations to do something about it.
Q203 Graham Stringer: Would you be
prepared to lean on the train operating companies, threaten to
change the franchise, which I understand you have the power to
do?
Derek Twigg: Are you talking about
for one station?
Q204 Graham Stringer: I am just using
it as an example, it might be part of a network, it might be one
station.
Derek Twigg: I think it is a difficulty
in terms of what would be in a particular franchise. As you know,
South Western is the first one that we have done as the Department
for Transport from start to finish and you have seen what we are
doing in terms of the additional security issues we want to put
in there. I suspect that some of the franchise agreements previously
were not as proscriptive so it may be more difficult but as part
of the franchises there are penalties that can be imposed and
plans to recover from situations that need to be implemented if
we seek that as part of the franchise agreement.
Q205 Graham Stringer: Apart from
the research you have commissioned, what is your source of information
about crime on stations?
Derek Twigg: We get the annual
reports from the BTP and we have regular meetings with the BTP
and with the train operating companies. MPs write to us on issues.
Q206 Graham Stringer: In those statistics
you get from BTP, is crime against the person on railway stations
separated out from the other statistics?
Derek Twigg: Violent crime, you
mean? Yes. It is categorised in terms of what the crimes are.
I am happy to let you have a list of that.
Q207 Mr Goodwill: We have received
evidence this afternoon about the use of CCTV systems and some
of the information has been a little bit patchy about the deployment
of these, particularly outside London. Do you have the big picture?
Could you tell us, for example, what proportion of stations across
the entire network is now monitored using CCTV?
Derek Twigg: About a third of
stations.
Q208 Mr Goodwill: We have also heard
that there are different ways that CCTV is being used. Some of
it seems to be reactive and if an incident occurs they can go
back, pull the tapes and see that incident. Others are being monitored
and others are being monitored and backed up with PA announcements
to people who may be starting to behave in a disruptive or antisocial
way. How important do you think those different types are and
how would you like to see the deployment of those in the future?
Derek Twigg: I think CCTV is a
very important weapon and defence in terms of issues around crime
at stations or crime generally. Clearly there are differing standards
of CCTV around and we would like to see the best quality, particularly
if they could be linked up with other CCTV systems.
Q209 Chairman: So you have written
that into the franchise, have you?
Derek Twigg: No, we have not.
What I am trying to say, if I can just finish my answer and I
will hopefully be able to give you some further information on
that,—
Q210 Chairman: I am sure you will.
Derek Twigg: In terms of the accredited
secure station status that is something we looked at as part of
that process. Again, it is down to the train operating companies
that manage the stations to determine these things working with
the BTP. I know the BTP work very closely with them about this.
I was at Wimbledon station recently and they have got an excellent
system there and went through the process in terms of they were
backtracking over footage where they were able to pinpoint offenders
and deal with that in one particular case where someone fired
off an extinguisher at the station when a train was coming into
the station. Yes, there are different systems and maybe that is
something that needs to be looked at in terms of the future deployment
of CCTV.
Q211 Mr Goodwill: Can you see a situation
in the future when all stations would be required through the
franchise agreement to deploy CCTV?
Derek Twigg: I think more and
more will be. I come back to the earlier point. Whether it is
right that every station needs to have CCTV—Mrs Ellman made
the point about staffing—is it staffing, is it lighting,
is it having the particular design of the station changed, or
some part of it, or mirrors where there are subways, et cetera,
there are lots of different approaches. Is it the same at a rural
station where only a small handful of people go on it every day
compared with a busier town station?
Q212 Chairman: Are you asking us,
Minister?
Derek Twigg: No, I am not asking
you, I am just saying these are some of the considerations that
have to take place.
Chairman: I beg your pardon, I was not
clear.
Q213 Mr Goodwill: In those circumstances
do you think that the cost of manning of CCTV could even contribute
to the closure of stations or lines?
Derek Twigg: That is an interesting
line you are trying to draw me down but, as you know, we are not
in the process of closing hundreds or dozens of railway stations,
in fact we want to grow the railways. You will have just seen
our recent announcement on Northern Rail and, despite the suspicions
and innuendo, there were no closures. We want to grow the railway.
Having the sorts of security measures we have spoken about here
today we will encourage more encourage people to use the railway
which is already something that is becoming more and more attractive
by the day.
Q214 Mr Goodwill: I think one failure
that has been highlighted this afternoon is the situation where
a local station has a CCTV system that is not being monitored
but the local authority does have a monitoring room. Do you think
it has been a mistake not to encourage more stations to link into
their local CCTV systems?
Derek Twigg: We have encouraged
them to work with the Crime Reduction Partnerships which exist
in areas to deal with crime. Often crime will not just be relevant
to a particular station, it might be a general wider problem in
the area around the station which may involve the station at some
point. Clearly closer partnership work is something that we would
encourage and I know that a number of operators are already doing
that quite well. In fact, Wimbledon is one of those operators
as part of the South Western Franchise who are doing that.
Q215 Mr Goodwill: We have heard how
having more people around the place in fluorescent jackets and
having more cameras around has reduced crime in stations. Have
you any information as to how far that crime has been negated
completely or whether there has just been a displacement into
areas around stations or other city centre areas? Are we genuinely
reducing crime by these systems or are we just displacing it to
other areas?
Derek Twigg: I think BTP have
said that they see secure station accreditation has helped reduce
crime but clearly it will vary from station to station. There
are a number of factors that need to be brought into play in terms
of what is the best solution for a particular station.
Q216 Mr Leech: Do you agree with
the train operating companies who are arguing that it is better
to upgrade a lot of the existing CCTV on the old analogue systems
to digital rather than trying to extend it to 100% coverage of
all the stations?
Derek Twigg: I think it is a matter
of judgment that the train operating companies need to make on
their stations in terms of how they spend the resources that are
available.
Q217 Chairman: Minister, does the
Department have any view at all about how safety should be handled?
Derek Twigg: I tried to explain
that is part of the reason that we support and deal with the secure
stations accreditation, why we put the clause in the South Western
franchise and why we are working closely with train operating
companies and the rest of the industry. I am trying to make clear
that, yes, we have a strategic view in terms of the Department
under the new structure but in terms of the actual operation and
management of the stations the people best placed to determine
what happens there are the train operating companies and we will
work with them.
Chairman: I do not think we were asking
you to operate the cameras.
Q218 Mr Martlew: Can we go back to
the policy which appears to be to push up standards through tightening
the franchise, improving the franchise, and that seemed to be
the view of the Chief Constable, as opposed to new legislation.
You mentioned that you want 80% of secure stations from South
Western trains.
Derek Twigg: Of the footfall.
Q219 Mr Martlew: What is it at the
present time?
Derek Twigg: In terms of what
we have asked them to do?
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