Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-239)
DEREK TWIGG
MP
19 APRIL 2006
Q220 Mr Martlew: You are asking them
to improve to 80% of the footfall at the stations but what is
it at the present time? Is it a high target for them or are they
already there?
Derek Twigg: I could not give
you the answer to that today. I can come back to you on that.
Q221 Mr Martlew: You mentioned Northern
Trains and I have two stations just outside my constituency that
could be closed. Obviously my concern if they had been fully staffed
would have been the economics would have been such that they would
have closed. Nobody has mentioned the cost of security. Do you
believe that there is a case for increasing the take from the
fare box and putting up prices to increase security on the railways?
Derek Twigg: Sorry, putting up
the price of rail so we can increase security?
Q222 Mr Martlew: For example, in
Spain they put a tariff on the ticket which pays for security.
Do you think that is a policy that should be taken up here?
Derek Twigg: You come to an interesting
area in terms of the price of railway tickets. Our policy remains,
as you well know, it is RPI plus one. There is over 87 million
a week being spent on the railways. A lot of the staff and a lot
of the security cameras are already there and a lot of the other
improvements are part of that money, which is a significant improvement
from where we were a few years ago. In terms of staffing generally
it comes back to the issue I am trying to make a point on. It
does not mean that every station needs to be staffed, that may
not be the best solution.
Q223 Mr Martlew: I am not arguing
with that. I am not arguing for the Government to put extra money
in. What I am saying is if the train operating companies came
to you with a good security case saying, "We can improve
security at stations by this much but we need to increase prices",
what would be your view of that?
Derek Twigg: As you know, we are
currently reviewing the Saver tickets and fares but I would not
like to say at this stage that we have not had that approach.
We would listen to any approach made by the train operating companies
but our policy remains as it is.
Q224 Graham Stringer: Have you any
quantitative estimate in actual figures of the amount that has
been spent on an annual basis on increased security at stations?
Derek Twigg: We do not have that
for a number of reasons. The money has been spread across a number
of expenditure areas on the railway. A lot of the money specifically
has been spent in terms of upgrading the railway from where it
was a number of years ago but also there is other money coming
in in terms of local authorities and private sources. The actual
amounts do not come just from the Department or the train operating
companies.
Q225 Graham Stringer: I know that
it comes from different sources, it is just that reading through
the written submissions that are before the Committee, the different
train operating companies say, "We have spent money on this"
but all of them are pretty reluctant to say, or they have not
said, "We have spent five million, 10 million" or any
figures. In your concern about safety and security of stations
I wonder whether the Department have bothered to ask or find those
figures out.
Derek Twigg: It is not so much
have been bothered to ask but, as I say, as I am sure you would
recognise, there has been an increase in investment in the railway
and that includes safety and there are a variety of sources from
which to do that. The key responsibility remains with the train
operating companies and Network Rail where they have stations.
We have not got that information. We have not done that.
Q226 Graham Stringer: Let me lead
on to another question related to that. As I am sure you are aware,
we are doing a concurrent investigation into security of transport
across the whole of the UK. One of the issues that we have come
across is that, of course, the rail system is a completely open
system and I am sure terrorists know that as well. Do you not
think it would be sensible to know against the background of a
potential threat from terrorists how much is being spent on security
and whether that could be used to help in the general security
of the system against terrorist attacks? Do you not think the
Government should have some idea of those issues and figures?
Derek Twigg: As I say, there are
a variety of sources of investment that comes into the railway
and we have not had those figures. What we do know is that there
have been significant amounts spent on the railway and that includes
security as well.
Q227 Graham Stringer: Really that
is not good enough, is it? To know that there are different sources
is not really an excuse for not knowing how much has been spent
on it and whether it is improving and whether that will help or
not in general security as against a terrorist attack?
Derek Twigg: Security is improving
per se because there are more CCTV cameras around, there
is better lighting at a large number of stations and, as I say,
we are improving the franchises in terms of the way we deal with
the security issue. The overall crime rate has dropped, although
I accept in certain categories it has not. There is already evidence
of what has been done in terms of improvements. What I want to
do, like everybody else around this table, is see further improvement
in that. Because of a variety of sources of income coming into
the railway, and into stations in particular, clearly that is
something we do not currently have the figures on.
Q228 Clive Efford: There has been
a proliferation of categories of names of enforcement staff on
our railways: TravelSafe officers, community support officers,
railway enforcement officers as well as police officers and the
BTP themselves. Is there any danger that in this proliferation
of different categories of officers there is going to be confusion
in the eyes of the public?
Derek Twigg: No, I do not believe
there will. As you know the number of BTP officers has significantly
increased in recent years, as has the number of community support
officers, which I think, eventually, in the next year or two,
will go up to over 400. There is the new railway accreditation
scheme, the one I launched recently, at Victoria Station for the
South Eastern Trains. These are all helping to reassure passengers,
helping to deal with crime, particularly low level crime and anti-social
behaviour. I think that complements the British Transport Police.
I know the Chief Constable has been very supportive and is very
enthusiastic about those improvements that are taking place.
Q229 Clive Efford: Has the Government
made any assessment of the effectiveness of the Southwest Trains'
TravelSafe officers as a deterrent for anti-social behaviour or
preventing crime?
Derek Twigg: We have not made
any particular study of that but clearly we believe that having
more personnel in terms of security has helped that. The BTP,
as I say, work very closely with the different bodies but I think
the community support officers will increase and the railway accreditation
scheme, which has been launched recently, has already had success
in terms of dealing with some of the low level anti-social behaviour.
Q230 Clive Efford: Is there any concern
on the Government's part that we are seeing a proliferation of
officers who have got limited powers and, therefore, we are giving
the public a false sense of security?
Derek Twigg: It is also hand in
hand with an increase in the number of British Transport Police
officers which I think is now at record levels. There has been
an increase in both British Transport Police officers and also
in terms of the other safety and security officers who come on
to the railway. I think also we have made major contributions
to the British Transport Police in terms of the investment in
capital projects and helping in that way as well. There is a lot
of investment gone into British Transport Police as well, as you
know, from the industry as a whole.
Q231 Clive Efford: What about new
technology? Operation Shield was very successful, I believe, in
detecting people carrying knives on the rail network. Does the
Government intend to invest more money in technology of that kind
and what other items might be detected that we might not want
people to take on the railways using that sort of technology in
the future?
Derek Twigg: I know it is going
slightly outside this work, but we have done some trials in terms
of terrorism issues and things. In terms of the specific one,
Operation Shield, that was an initiative by the British Transport
Police which we welcome. As you know they are extending it and
this has had some success in detecting a number of individuals
who carry knives so clearly we welcome that sort of initiative.
As I say, the overall budget of the BTP has been increased by
the train operating companies, who are funding it, and of course
in terms of capital which includes improvements in the BTP's ability
to operate.
Q232 Clive Efford: If this technology,
as it appears to have done, proves to be effective, will the Government
be approaching train operating companies to say, "Contribute
some more towards this and we can make the railway safer"?
Derek Twigg: The train operating
companies contribute significant amounts anyway in to the British
Transport Police. One point in answer to that is to say it is
for the BTP to decide operational matters and they decided with
Operation Shield to put that in place. That has brought success
in a number of areas and they want to extend it but that is part
of the overall budget deliberations. I cannot say today whether
that will change the amount of money that will come into the BTP.
What I can say is there has already been an increase in the funding
available. There has been an increase in the number of BTP officers;
there has been another increase in the community support officers
and of course, we have had the railway accreditation scheme as
well. There has been a significant increase in security from the
BTP and those who work with them.
Q233 Clive Efford: Does the Government
have the authority in any way to turn around to the train operating
companies who are making money and running the railways and say
that we have concerns about safety and we think you should be
contributing more in this area in terms of safety on the railways?
Derek Twigg: We talk on a regular
basis to the train operating companies, Network Rail and to the
BTP and clearly issues of security will come up and we will talk
to them about that. Where we think things work well we would encourage
that. In terms of the overall budgets of that, that is something
that has got to take part of the annual negotiations around the
budget settlement. I can only repeat the budget has increased.
Q234 Clive Efford: Does the Government
have the authority to say to train operating companies, "Spend
some more money in this area"?
Derek Twigg: If we put in a franchise
we could in that sense but, as I say, in terms of what we franchise
the train operating company to do, clearly we would want to work
with them rather than saying you must not do this or that. There
are certain things we would put in, we have said certain things
in the South Western franchise. We would work with them and hopefully
if we find something that works well, we would look at how we
could improve things. I think we try to work together in partnership
and develop better and more appropriate means of security but,
as I say, the train operating companies, working with the BTP,
are the best people to deliver that.
Q235 Clive Efford: We have seen in
the past in other areas, to put it bluntly, that the train operating
companies have not invested where people would have liked them
to have invested the money. At the end of the day, if there is
a concern about safety and we are saying this train operating
company is not taking its responsibilities in this regard seriously,
does the Government have the power to say "do more and spend
more"?
Derek Twigg: If it is part of
the franchise you can do it by the franchise mechanism itself.
We have a contract with the train operating companies.
Q236 Chairman: Is it the intention
of the Government that all the new franchises will include a standard
minimum safety requirement that they will expect the company taking
the franchise to comply with?
Derek Twigg: It is an operational
matter for the BTP working with the train operating company. In
terms of what we have done in the South Western franchise clearly
we will continue with that in the new franchises. We will also
learn lessons from this franchising process as well so whether
we can improve or do things in a different way as the franchises
roll out over the next few months and year, then clearly we will
look at that as well.
Q237 Mr Leech: The Department for
Transport has admitted that in some multi-operator stations it
is often difficult for passengers to work out who is responsible
for safety. What is the Department doing to try and address this
problem?
Derek Twigg: It really is the
responsibility of the operator and Network Rail to ensure that
the passengers and the people who are using the station know who
is responsible for the station and for safety, and we would encourage
that. We would like to see that made clear for the operation of
the station.
Q238 Mr Leech: If they are not doing
it, what is the Department going to do to make sure that they
do it?
Derek Twigg: It is something that
we can look at. In terms of worthy examples, clearly we would
have to look at that and talk to the train operating company or
Network Rail in terms of ensuring that happens. We would have
a discussion with them about that. It is important, as you rightly
say, that information is available to passengers.
Q239 Mr Leech: Do you not feel the
Department should show some leadership when people do not seem
to have any idea who is responsible for the security of the station
that they are on?
Derek Twigg: If we receive complaints,
and there is an issue which is raised at a particular stage, then
that is something that we will look at.
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