Examination of Witness (Questions 20-32)
CHIEF CONSTABLE
IAN JOHNSTON
CBE QPM
26 APRIL 2006
Q20 Mr Goodwill: Conversely, how
would your officers be equipped to integrate in Met operations?
Would they require additional training or not?
Chief Constable Johnston: It depends
what job you gave them in the Met. If you put them in firearms
teams, we do not have firearms officers so they would clearly
require that training, but most of the Met are not firearms officers.
Our training regime is exactly the same as Home Office forces
with the exception that we do a fortnights additional training
to help us deal with a range of railway issues and obviously that
training is supported from the initial training and thereafter
during their careers.
Q21 Mr Goodwill: If there were a
merger, what you are saying is that it would not be the forces
merging it would just be some at the top?
Chief Constable Johnston: I do
not know. In terms of exploring the detail, there are a number
of different models for how they could do it and I guess they
would be the people to ask about that. I think the Met is a very,
very large and very, very capable organisation which does lots
of things extraordinarily well. I also think it has got quite
a few challenges. I think that because we are a relatively small
organisation, we are a specialist organisation, this is our top
level business, this is what keeps us in business, we are very
highly motivated around this. We want to police the railways,
that is why we join. If you put us in with another organisation,
which is what they did in New York, you would find high levels
of demotivation and that led in the short term to major increases
in crime in the New York subway and to asset stripping. So the
numbers on the New York subway went down in order to supplement
the over land policing. There is actually a disparity in crime
levels. I know we have had discussions about this. Crime on the
railways compared with elsewhere is much lower. I used a figure
recently where throughout the whole of England and Wales we have
got broadly the same level of crime on the railways as there is
in Westminster in one year. We have got a handle on this and I
think we are doing a good job. That is not to say we cannot do
better and that nobody else should ever look at it. It is absolutely
right they should. I think if we had been left out when reviewing
the 43 forces it would not have been a good idea. I do think there
is something about making a strong case for change because there
are substantial costs organisationally, financially and energy
wise associated with it.
Q22 Mr Leech: Do you think there
is potential for the train operating companies who are currently
paying your wages to then start arguing that they were funding
policing outside of the railways and, in fact, there would be
a shift of policing from the railways to other areas that are
perceived to have more crime?
Chief Constable Johnston: I think
that is the point I am making. Certainly the New York experience
was that when the under ground police there were taken over by
New York that is exactly what happened, officers were taken out
of the under ground.
Q23 Mr Leech: Do you think that would
happen here as well?
Chief Constable Johnston: I can
only speculate. I could not possibly know. If you are policing
on an intelligence-led model or a rational management model and
if you are sensible you put your resources where there is most
demand. It is possible to infer that there is greater demand for
policing outside the railways and if you amalgamate the two you
are going to get asset stripping on the railways.
Q24 Mr Leech: Last week you told
us what a good relationship the British Transport Police had with
all the other agencies that deal with security at stations. Do
you think there is potential for a breaking down in that relationship
if the responsibility went to the Metropolitan Police?
Chief Constable Johnston: I think
it would be at different levels. Mike Brown, the Chief Operating
Officer, and I know each other personally and have got a very
good relationship. I know Keith Ludeman and Andrew Haines. All
the MDs here have personal contact with the Chief Constable of
the BTP specialist police force. I do not think, having worked
at the Met, that Ian Blair will have sufficient time on his hands
to do that. I think he has probably got a much wider range of
responsibilities. That is not to say that the police sitting behind
me, Alan Brown, could not start to build that relationship, but
it is there, we have got it and it is built on mutual understanding
and mutual trust.
Q25 Mr Leech: So would you say the
old phrase "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is your
view on the British Transport Police?
Chief Constable Johnston: I am
more critical of any organisation of which I am a member. I am
not saying there is nothing to do in my organisation. I think
there is loads to do in my organisation. I am just saying that
if you are into the business of deciding whether the railways
are best policed by a specialist force or by lots of disparate
other forces then I think there is a really strong case for an
integrated single force for policing the railways. I think if
the Met took over responsibility for policing the railways that
would interfere with that principle in a very significant way
and I think they would have a very steep learning curve. The sort
of relationship that the most senior people in the rail industry
are able to build with their senior officers within BTP would
be very difficult to replicate in the Metropolitan Police.
Q26 Mr Martlew: You have spent all
your time here answering our questions very well about the railways.
Why is the name of your organisation the British Transport Police
when you do not have any responsibility for anything else?
Chief Constable Johnston: It is
a bit of an historical anomaly. To be honest with you, I guess
it would be intelligent to think carefully about that. A lot of
people hang on to that for the heritage. We used to police the
docks and the waterways and so the transport police at that stage
was a much more intelligent decision. We only do railways and
trams now. That is not to say that there are not options for us
to take our national infrastructure and our understanding of the
transport system into other bits of transport, but railway police
is a more accurate title.
Chairman: It might be a good idea to
suggest going back to the docks. Sorry!
Q27 Mr Martlew: Do you think there
are other parts of the transport system where you could use your
expertise?
Chief Constable Johnston: Yes,
I do. This is not something that you do at the drop of a hat.
You need to think your way through all these things. The airports
are a very similar operating environment to the railways. It is
a commercial operating environment. There are massive knock-on
consequences of policing interventions at airports which can have
long-term economic effects and impacts on passengers throughout
the world. I think you could bring to bear a body of useful experience
in that. We already have in place a national infrastructure to
manage those situations. At present there is a review of borders
policing being undertaken by Government and I think again with
our national infrastructure and with ports being part of the transport
arrangements that would make sense. You talk about the integration
of bus transport and railway transport. There are transport hubs
at Heathrow and Dover where I think the British Transport Police
could add value. I think we have got quite a lot on our plates
at the moment. I would like to provide a really high-class service
on the railways in a sense before I set my sights on looking anywhere
else.
Q28 Mr Martlew: On the Met, I suspect
that none of us is surprised that you put a bid in for it. Is
there anything in reality that stops the Met Police from going
onto railway land or going on the Underground?
Chief Constable Johnston: Not
a bit. They are absolutely brilliant. They do. They are all over
Victoria and we are absolutely delighted they are. Our PCSOs walk
round the outside of Victoria and if something happens we go and
help them. On the ground there is a really mature working relationship
and at senior level. There is nothing personal in any of this
debate. I think it is a perfectly legitimate debate. I think we
have very good working relationships at ground floor level. We
are delighted if the Met come on to railway stations, it is fantastic.
We are delighted to see them on trains. They get travel concessions
to encourage them to come on trains. They are absolutely welcome,
there are absolutely no barriers and we think it is a great idea.
Q29 Mr Martlew: All the train companies
get subsidies from the Government. Would it not be sensible to
top-slice that and fund the police directly to avoid having this
argument about which train companies should pay how much and when
they are going to pay it? I understand some of them are not very
good at paying.
Chief Constable Johnston: I think
that is one of the good ideas because the £1 I get off the
train operator, is it a government pound or is it a fare box pound?
Whose pound is it? I think there is an administrative money-go-round
which is probably a more expensive way of managing affairs and
in my opinion it could take a big sting out of the conflict we
have over the railways to do with funding. It has been our police
authority who I think have made a massive difference to the British
Transport Police recently because they have had the ability to
make decisions about levels of funding and I think it is that
that has turned the force around and that might not have occurred
if there had been other arrangements in place. This is a complex
issue. I do not think there is a single easy solution otherwise
it would have happened already.
Q30 Chairman: Are your payments usually
on time?
Chief Constable Johnston: Some
people are very good and some people owe us money for a long,
long period of time.
Q31 Chairman: Could I guess that
was a no, Chief Constable?
Chief Constable Johnston: Yes.
Q32 Chairman: You are always very
helpful and enormously diplomatic. I think we could all take lessons
from you. Thank you very much for coming.
Chief Constable Johnston: Thank
you.
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