Examination of Witness (Questions 40-59)
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER
ALAN BROWN
26 APRIL 2006
Q40 Chairman: Was there a difficulty?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
There were a number of issues in relation to the overall policing
response. The arrangements that existed between the Metropolitan
Police and the British Transport Police and the City of London
Police worked well on those occasions. Yes, there were some difficulties
in communicating between under ground and over ground and, as
you have already heard Ian say, those are going to be the subject
of some work and we anticipate that by 2007 those difficulties
will be overcome.
Q41 Chairman: Although there were
some problems which have been identified and rectified, are you
not aware of any major problem that arose?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
Not on 7 July. I would say 7 July was an extremist situation,
it was at the extreme level of policing response. My answer to
are there difficulties would be that one perhaps should look at
the other end of the policing response to see where the connectivity
is between the local communities of London, how they perceive
the boundaries that exist between policing the communities of
London and policing the rail networks of London.
Q42 Chairman: So you have had representations
from the local councils that the British Transport Police are
not doing their job on stations or you have had representations
from elected members that there is a gap?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
There is an expectation that the communities of London have and
the people of London have and that has been voiced by the Mayor
of London
Q43 Chairman: The Mayor is excellent.
Is there anyone other than the Mayor that has demonstrated this
very clear gap that is worrying them?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
A number of people have. A number of victims have. A number of
people who have been the subject of crime are concerned and do
show some frustration that it is not joined up in the way that
perhaps the people of London would expect.
Q44 Chairman: Which particular way?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
There is a gap in terms of capability.
Q45 Chairman: Not enough police officers?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I am not saying there are not enough police officers.
Q46 Chairman: Inadequate police training?
Forgive me, I am not very clever, Mr Brown. What is it you are
saying to me exactly?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I do not accept that you are not very clever, Chairman. What I
am saying to you is that there are gaps between the Metropolitan
Police and the service provision that is provided by the British
Transport Police and they are best exampled by the level of response,
particularly in relation to serious crime. The concern that the
Metropolitan Police has is in relation to the connectivity between
the community as it goes about its business in London and the
need to provide a continuous policing response. I would say there
are gaps between that lower level tasking and the lower level
collection of intelligence and the ability to share that intelligence
and it is an area of concern.
Q47 Chairman: So they get the intelligence
but they do not tell you, is that what you are saying?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I think it probably travels both ways.
Chairman: It is quite possible.
Q48 Graham Stringer: The basis of
your evidence is that the nature of policing the capital changed
fundamentally and irreversibly on 7 July. That is rubbish, is
it not?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
No.
Q49 Graham Stringer: Explain why
it is not.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
It is not rubbish because London has never ever had a threat as
described by the events of 7 July or indeed the attempts of 21
July. The paradigm for counter-terrorism fundamentally changed
on that day. The need for a different style of policing response
became immediately apparent from that day. There was a very clear
change in the paradigm of policing for London and indeed the rest
of the country from that day onwards.
Q50 Graham Stringer: We have spoken
to the security services and the police force not just in this
city but around the world. There have been attacks in east Africa,
Bali, Istanbul, New York and Washington by al Qaeda and there
have been IRA attacks here. The Metropolitan Police Service and
the security services were aware before 7 July and they were making
preparations that those attacks would be likely to take place.
Every single security service that we have spoken to has said
that the attacks were inevitable before 7 July and they are still
inevitable. So explain to me what fundamentally changed on 7 July.
You clearly knew what was happening around the world and what
the threat was here.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I think your statement is slightly disingenuous.
Q51 Graham Stringer: They are the
facts.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
Can I answer, please?
Q52 Graham Stringer: You said they
were disingenuous. They were not. I was stating facts.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I think what absolutely changed fundamentally on that date was
the fact that the attacks actually happened. If you look at the
profile of those people who were engaged in those attacks, it
was a fundamental difference to what we had ever experienced on
mainland UK before and I do not think you will find anybody from
the policing service who would argue that that was not the case.
Q53 Graham Stringer: Similar attacks
had taken place in New York and had been planned elsewhere in
Europe.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I do not recall any similar attacks in New York. I recall some
horrific attacks which were perpetrated by people who had hijacked
aeroplanes. I do not recall any attacks by people who had adopted
what has become known as suicide bombing by carrying rucksacks
laden with explosives. I do not recall that anywhere else.
Q54 Graham Stringer: The fundamental
paradigm of the operation is that terrorists are willing to kill
themselves. They killed themselves in New York and Washington.
The point I am making is that the threat was there. Your evidence
is different from the evidence we have received from the security
services that have acknowledged that the threat was there previously,
it is still there and we want the best response we can get from
it. In your opening statement you said you did not want to be
seen to be predatory.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
We do not.
Q55 Graham Stringer: What I am listening
to in the evidence is a lack of substance of real problems. You
string together a whole series of abstract nouns like connectivity,
community response and you do not give me anything what would
persuade me that there was a real problem in policing terms in
the capital. You have not given me real examples of where people
have suffered crime, death or violent activities because of the
fact that the policing on the railways is not controlled by the
Met.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
What I have tried to explain is that there are some significant
difficulties and some significant expectations in how policing
is delivered across the capital. I am firmly of the opinion that
as good as the British Transport Police is and as well as the
transport police cooperate, it is very clearly the position of
the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Home Secretary,
the Home Office and indeed ourselves that the history of collaboration
is not as good as one organisation actually having the responsibility.
That is a position that is acknowledged by chief police officers
throughout the country. What you had in London is you had an artificial
boundary. Ian talked about the creation of additional boundaries.
I would suggest that by amalgamating the British Transport Police
certainly within the London area you reduce the boundary, because
we already have boundaries with those forces that border onto
the Metropolitan Police area and so we already have those relationships.
What you have is an extra layer which complicates the current
environment, which is the boundary between ourselves and the British
Transport Police in London. What I am saying is that there is
significant benefit in joining up the community approach to policing—and
it is being adopted by the Metropolitan Police and funded by the
Government—the more serious aspects of crime investigation.
The expectation that the people of London have is that that will
take place in the best and most seamless way that can be delivered.
I am saying that by having the Metropolitan Police take responsibility
for policing the railways within London is the best way to deliver
it.
Q56 Graham Stringer: Can you give
me particular examples of where people have suffered because of
the boundary between the transport police and yourselves?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I have not come here with any specific examples. I have come here
with an understanding of what the policing environment in London
actually is.
Q57 Graham Stringer: These very general
organisational issues take me back to your very first point, which
was that you are operating as a standard predatory bureaucracy.
You say things have fundamentally changed, therefore we will take
over somewhere else. I am quite willing to accept that as an argument
if you can tell me that real people are suffering here in London
because of it and so far you have not done so.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I am sorry that I have not persuaded you of that.
Q58 Graham Stringer: You have not
given me real examples.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I have not come here with real examples. I have come with a strategic
position based upon an understanding of how policing within London
is currently conducted. There are some significant economies and
efficiencies that would come out of this as well. The backroom
amalgamations would release significant funding that would undoubtedly
be able to be ploughed back into front-line policing. The creation
of additional bureaucracy and line management and command structures
would all be significantly reduced if there was one command structure
for London and that additional money could be ploughed back into
London.
Q59 Mr Martlew: The reality is that
would apply to a national police force, is it not?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
It is possible that could apply to a national police force if
indeed there was a case to argue for that.
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