Examination of Witness (Questions 60-79)
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER
ALAN BROWN
26 APRIL 2006
Q60 Graham Stringer: We can recognise
that you have not provided the real examples on the ground. In
terms of the administrative arguments, can you respond to the
argument that if you integrate services in London you disintegrate
the rail service across the whole of the country and people in
Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool may well suffer a worse service
when they are travelling on the trains?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
It is not for me to comment on what would happen outside of the
Metropolitan Police Service area.
Q61 Chairman: It is. That is the
question you are being asked. You cannot really say we are going
to take over two-thirds of an organisation but, of course, it
is not for me to comment on what would happen to the remaining
third or whatever. Frankly, you did not come here to say that
you just have a series of abstract ideas presumably, you have
come on the basis of some evidence.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I certainly did not come here with a series of abstract ideas
and I am sorry if you think that what I have said is an abstract
idea. What I have tried to demonstrate to you is that there is
concern about the approach to policing in London that sees there
to be two police forces providing the policing service to London.
Q62 Chairman: Could you take your
courage in your hands and comment on what would happen to the
rest of the transport police?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
What would happen to the rest of the transport police would be
informed by negotiations between the new strategic forces and
the British Transport Police and the train operating companies.
I am afraid I am not in a position to say quite how that would
be managed.
Q63 Chairman: And you would not really
be concerned because the Met is only concerned with how it can
bump up its numbers.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
The Metropolitan Police is not concerned about how it can bump
up its numbers. The Metropolitan Police is concerned about its
policing service delivery to the people of London. It is not concerned
about numbers, it is concerned about making sure that the best
service is delivered to the people of London and that is the whole
reason for my appearance here today.
Q64 Graham Stringer: If the transport
police was integrated with the Met in London, do you not believe
as an Assistant Commissioner that there would be times when work
on the railways would be de-prioritised? You would be able to
say there are real problems happening at the present time in Brixton
or Camden or at Heathrow Airport, that is the nature of a large
organisation, it can prioritise, but you would get a worse service
on the overland rail and the tube service.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I think in answering that question I would refer you to the experience
that we can point to particularly in relation to the policing
of Heathrow Airport and in relation to the arrangements that have
been drawn up in terms of the provision of neighbourhood policing
and indeed those pieces of Transport for London that we have responsibility
for. I would suggest that all of those concerns could be removed
by the fact that there would be an agreed service agreement as
to the levels of service that we provided and that only on occasions
of extremist circumstances would you find that resources would
be removed over and above that. Yes, if there were significant
levels of attacks against a particular part of London and it was
necessary to take resources from the transport system then that
would undoubtedly happen. That would undoubtedly happen now. The
creation of one force would not alter that. The reality is that
our argument is based upon providing the best service and that
revolves around the level of capability that we have that British
Transport Police does not have, the removal of the possibility
of disconnect because you have got two lines of command and the
ability that having one organisation with responsibility would
have in terms of creating greater connectivity between what is
an emerging success story around the policing of neighbourhoods
and communities within London and engaging those with the transport
infrastructure throughout London.
Q65 Mrs Ellman: You have just stated
that the Met has a level of capability that the British Transport
Police does not have.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
That is true.
Q66 Mrs Ellman: You are saying it
is true. Can you then give me an example of where the British
Transport Police has let the community down and where you can
demonstrate you could have done it better?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I do not think it is up to me to comment on the British Transport
Police's—
Q67 Mrs Ellman: I think it is.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I do not intend to.
Q68 Mrs Ellman: What we are discussing
is your support for a proposal which would fundamentally change
the nature of policing of rail and cause the disbandment of the
British Transport Police certainly in London and probably beyond,
but you have already said that is not your concern. Therefore,
I am asking you for specific examples of where the current system
has failed and how the Met would make it better. You do have to
give those examples because otherwise your argument does not have
any substance.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I would draw evidence from Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary
reports and the baseline assessment of the two forces and I would
draw your attention to the capabilities as reported on both forces
particularly in relation to the investigation of serious crime
and in relation to the ability to tackle what was described earlier
as Level 2 crime, particularly in relation to the provision of
forensic support, all of which give the Metropolitan Police significant
capability that is not enjoyed by the British Transport Police.
Q69 Mrs Ellman: What about the level
of crime which the British Transport Police is particularly involved
with? That is a different level of crime, is it not? In what way
can the Metropolitan Police do the job better than the British
Transport Police can in London?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I think if you look at the extreme end and you look at the investigation
of the offences of 7 July and where most of those offences were
committed, they were committed on the railways and yet it was
the Metropolitan Police that investigated those. If you look at
the offences of murder that have been committed on British Transport
Police property, you will find there were three offences of murder
in the last 12 months. One of those offences had to be investigated
by the Metropolitan Police. The model of murder investigation
as practised by the Metropolitan Police is now the model of murder
investigation that is being promulgated as good practice and because
of the limited resources and the great stretch that the British
Transport Police have they are unable to put that model to work.
Q70 Mrs Ellman: But what about the
type of crime that British Transport Police typically deal with?
What evidence do you have that the Met could do it better?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I am not suggesting that the Met could investigate the lower level
crime better.
Q71 Mrs Ellman: Is that not a significant
point in relation to the bulk of the work of the British Transport
Police? I am directing your attention to that issue because that
is very important in the context that we are discussing. In what
way do you believe that the Met could do a better job than the
British Transport Police in dealing with that sort of crime which
is typically found on the railway?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I do not think it is a question of the Metropolitan Police doing
it better because we would certainly look to take those resources
that are currently deployed and have that expertise within the
British Transport Police and make them more available to work
with and to be better informed by crime that has significant connectivity
to those offences that are committed on the British Transport
Police network.
Q72 Mrs Ellman: So are you saying
that there is evidence that the Met could do it better or that
they could not?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I am saying that the approach would be better if there were no
gaps in the Metropolitan Police Service or indeed British Transport
Police.
Q73 Mrs Ellman: But do you not have
to demonstrate how that major change would improve the situation?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I think I can aptly demonstrate the ability to improve through
greater and better informed deployment of resources, so better
use of intelligence, better tasking of resources, greater connectivity
between local policing efforts within the Metropolitan Police
area. Though not specifically for this hearing, we have done some
work to identify what is the level of connectivity between the
Metropolitan Police Service and the British Transport Police and
there is no doubt that around larger transport hubs there is significant
co-operation. However, in those stations that are more to be found
in the areas of residential communities there is a significant
lack of connectivity between the ability of the British Transport
Police even to be made aware of what the problems are within the
local policing areas and how local communities see the role and
part that local stations play within those communities.
Q74 Mrs Ellman: What efforts have
been made to try and join up in those areas?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
We make our information available but I think the British Transport
Police is probably restricted by the manpower that it has.
Q75 Mrs Ellman: But what efforts
have been made by the Met to join up in those areas where you
say there is no connectivity?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
As I said, we have made our intelligence available, but I think
that the restriction is the level of manpower and the level of
capability that the British Transport Police has.
Q76 Mr Martlew: We have just heard
from the Chief Constable of the British Transport Police that
he is very happy for the Met to go on what you would call his
beat any time you like. The idea that the neighbourhood police
cannot go onto the local suburban station I do not think is correct,
is it?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
I did not say it was.
Q77 Mr Martlew: But you gave that
implication, that there was a problem, did you not?
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
No, but there is also an issue that we are not funded and we are
not staffed to police the Underground system. What I am saying
is that in terms of having one police service for London it is
actually about bringing together the British Transport policing
area and their resources—and I think that is a critical
part, to bring their resources, their expertise, together—and
aligning them through one command, one intelligence, one tasking
and co-ordinating process, connecting them together and realising
economies and efficiencies of scale in relation to the back-up
and the management on-costs and delivering that to front-line
policing services.
Q78 Mr Martlew: You have mentioned
the boundaries but you realise, of course, that there are police
forces on the boundaries of your area.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
Indeed.
Q79 Mr Martlew: And therefore there
are the same problems with them that you have with the British
Transport Police.
Assistant Commissioner Brown:
No, there are not.
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