Examination of Witness (Questions 120-139)
MR ALEC
ROBERTSON
26 APRIL 2006
Q120 Mrs Ellman: If the Metropolitan
Police did take over British Transport policing in London what
would that mean for British Transport Police?
Mr Robertson: I do not think that
the infrastructure could sustain a police force with the small
numbers involved in the geographical spread of British Transport
Police. I think it would create a massive problem. Closing a gap
came out. I did not hear any other police force in the United
Kingdom mention British Transport Police or that they would be
happy to police British Transport Police. The only police force
that has mentioned wanting to police the British Transport Police
areas is the Metropolitan Police, so when ACPO make statements
that we might not be fit for purpose I find it quite surprising
when none of them has come out and said that they want to police
British Transport Police.
Q121 Mrs Ellman: The Metropolitan
Police have referred to problems of connectivity in the relationship
between perpetrators of crime and the neighbourhoods that those
people come from. Are you aware of any such problems?
Mr Robertson: The whole thing
would be accountable to the Metropolitan Police but it would never
work in the Metropolitan Police area. When I worked in Glasgow
we had a close working relationship with Strathclyde Police, and
from time to time—
Q122 Chairman: Only a peaceful place.
Mr Robertson: Very peaceful, yes,
absolutely.— we would rely on Strathclyde Police and they
would pass on information. Similarly, British Transport Police
has worked hand-in-hand with Home Office forces for many years
without any due problems to either force.
Q123 Mrs Ellman: The Office of the
Rail Regulator has suggested that the rail industry itself should
take some more responsibility for policing. Do you think that
would be a way forward?
Mr Robertson: I think the way
forward with that is through the Police Authority. I know that
some of the train operating companies are on the Police Authority.
Whether they want to expand their role on that is another matter.
Almost 50% of the old Police Committee was from the train operating
companies and that has been diluted a bit, so whether they want
to come back in and have a bigger say in how they run things—
Q124 Mrs Ellman: Do the operating
companies pay enough?
Mr Robertson: In my view, no.
Q125 Mr Leech: Do you think the way
that the train operating companies pay is fit for the 21st century?
Mr Robertson: I have always said
that I do not believe in the "user pays" principle,
and I think I have spoken to every Secretary of State over the
last seven years with the same argument. Some pay up, as Mr Johnston
said. Some pay quickly; some do not pay so quickly.
Q126 Mr Leech: Are you prepared to
tell us who?
Mr Robertson: I think that is
a matter for Mr Johnston. With regard to that, I think the Government
can take the money from the train operating companies. They would
have bigger clout than British Transport Police. A lot of Mr Johnston's
time is taken up with negotiating a budget and I think that is
wasted time. I think Mr Johnston has got a role to play in the
Chief Officers' Group, not in dealing with budgets. Somebody else
can do that.
Q127 Mr Leech: Are there big variations
in the amount that each train operating company pays?
Mr Robertson: Yes, although I
have to say I do not know who pays what. The management depends
on the service level agreement.
Q128 Chairman: Could I ask you this,
Mr Robertson, because you are taking the opinions of all your
members all the time; that is what you do: you represent them?
After 7 July particularly were there specific problems of communication
that were raised by your members? Even if it is anecdotal, were
there people who said, "We have a particular problem. We
could not deal with our opposite numbers. We did not work well
because there was a physical or some other kind of difficulty"?
Did anybody within your membership raise with you specific difficulties
about working alongside the Met?
Mr Robertson: None whatsoever;
I think the exact opposite. I think it was along the lines that
it was a joined-up exercise that worked extremely well. In fact,
the Met Federation have also told me that, that they were getting
it from their members saying that everybody, including outside
of London, worked magnificently on the day and on subsequent days.
Q129 Chairman: So that any problems
that arose would have been highlighted at a different level because
they were not immediately obvious to the serving officers?
Mr Robertson: Certainly not, not
at that level, not at the operational level. It may be that at
a command level there may have been a wee problem but certainly
not at that level.
Q130 Chairman: Do your members have
any views about the requirement for training before they can go
on to railways? That must make them a fairly specialised force,
must it not?
Mr Robertson: Yes. You need to
have a track safety certificate before you can go on to the railways.
All our officers have two weeks' training at the end of their
Home Office-type training to bring them up to that standard and
it has to be revisited, I think every two years.
Q131 Chairman: Are you aware of any
problems at any particular mainline station, say, where your officers
are operating within the capital city and problems have arisen
with the Metropolitan force on a day-to-day basis?
Mr Robertson: Absolutely not.
Q132 Mr Leech: Just on the level
of training, is there a big discrepancy between the cost of training
a British Transport Police officer and a normal police officer?
Mr Robertson: I would imagine
it would be slightly higher because of that two weeks where they
pick up railway legislation and we do the safety training, but
that would be the only difference. Everything else is the exact
same, whether that be Scotland or England and Wales. It would
be the exact same training.
Q133 Mr Martlew: On the issuing of
a certificate, who actually does that? Is it yourselves?
Mr Robertson: It is actually now
a software package.
Q134 Mr Martlew: But who is it? Is
it the Transport Police?
Mr Robertson: We have our own
trainers who take our officers through it.
Q135 Chairman: Do you have any idea
what percentage of man hours are taken up dealing with the threats
of terrorism?
Mr Robertson: I have not the foggiest
idea. I think Mr Johnston could answer that one.
Q136 Chairman: Do you have a view
on whether the department should pay more money for dealing with
terrorist problems? When I say "you" I mean your Federation.
Mr Robertson: There is never enough
money. Many years ago when we had a Police Committee we were starved
of resources and funding, and since Sir Alistair Graham has taken
over the Police Authority it is a bit more robust, there is certainly
more clout and I think things are getting a little easier.
Q137 Chairman: Can you see any particular
advantage to your members in being absorbed by the Metropolitan
Police Force?
Mr Robertson: I cannot see any
advantages. As I said, the only advantage would be if it was in
the best interests of the travelling public and the safety of
rail staff. I have not heard an argument yet that gives me that
suggestion.
Q138 Chairman: Are you inundated
with emails and letters from your members demanding to be taken
over by Sir Ian Blair?
Mr Robertson: No.
Q139 Chairman: Did you check your
emails this morning before you came out?
Mr Robertson: I certainly did,
yes.
Chairman: Mr Robertson, you have been
very helpful. Thank you very much indeed.
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