Examination of Witness (Questions 140-159)
SIR ALISTAIR
GRAHAM AND
MR RICHARD
HEMMING
26 APRIL 2006
Q140 Chairman: Good afternoon, gentlemen.
Sir Alistair, would you be kind enough to introduce yourself for
the record and also your colleague.
Sir Alistair Graham: Yes. My name
is Alistair Graham. I am the Chairman of the British Transport
Police Authority.
Mr Hemming: Richard Hemming, I
am Chief Executive and Clerk to the Authority.
Q141 Chairman: Sir Alistair, did
you have something you wanted to say before we go to questions?
Sir Alistair Graham: No, I am
happy to take questions.
Q142 Chairman: Is the British Transport
Police fit for the 21st century as it is currently organised?
Sir Alistair Graham: Yes, it is,
although there is a need to continue the sort of investment programme
we started when the Authority took responsibility for the British
Transport Police.
Q143 Chairman: How does the structure
of the British Transport Police fit in with the Home Office review?
Sir Alistair Graham: As I understand
it, the Home Secretary sought the agreement of the Secretary of
State for Transport to include the British Transport Police in
the Home Office review. The Secretary of State for Transport was
not minded to do that but did agree with his colleague that there
would be a separate but parallel review of the British Transport
Police which is currently taking place.
Q144 Chairman: Has your Authority
considered whether or not it would approve of the Metropolitan
Police taking control of the British Transport Police in London?
Sir Alistair Graham: Yes, we have,
and we are totally opposed to it.
Q145 Chairman: Would you like to
tell us why?
Sir Alistair Graham: We are opposed
to it because if the Metropolitan Police Service was to take over
the British Transport Police then that would be the end, in our
view, of the British Transport Police as a national specialist
police force. We think there are major advantages, not only to
the railway companies and railway system of this country but to
the economy as a whole, in having such a national specialist police
force. There would be all sorts of other issues which would need
to be addressed but if the Metropolitan Police took over the London
part of the British Transport Police I do not see how you could
keep a separate police force for the remainder of the railway
system.
Q146 Mrs Ellman: What sort of communication
do you have with the public to assess their view of the services
that the British Transport Police provide?
Sir Alistair Graham: We receive
the results of the National Passenger Survey in which there are
some security questions, plus the fact as part of the budget making
process we hold workshops with the train operating companies in
which we ask them from their passenger feedback what sort of priorities
have they for dealing with security issues.
Q147 Mrs Ellman: Have you got any
evidence of dissatisfaction from the travelling public with the
service provided?
Sir Alistair Graham: No, I do
not. We do know that passengers are clearly worried about security
issues and they want a safe environment in which to travel. I
think it is particularly interesting the tremendous public response
we got after the events of 7 July and a fortnight later in which
there was a very positive response to the enormous efforts that
the British Transport Police had put in to deal with that dreadful
incident.
Q148 Mrs Ellman: Have the Metropolitan
Police made any approaches for better co-ordination with the British
Transport Police?
Sir Alistair Graham: Not to the
Authority. I suspect, in fact, that the argument for the amalgamation
is very much a personal one of the Commissioner for Metropolitan
Police because we have no evidence from the Metropolitan Police
Authority that they are a major driver seeking such an amalgamation.
I have had one formal meeting with some of the senior members
of the Metropolitan Police Authority and I regularly, as part
of being members of the Association of Police Authorities, meet
on an informal level with people like Katherine Crawford, who
is clerk to the Metropolitan Police Authority. They have not said,
"We would like to try and persuade you about the benefits
of amalgamation".
Q149 Mrs Ellman: Apart from amalgamation,
have there been any approaches that you are aware of for a change
in the method of co-operation between the two forces or better
co-ordination?
Sir Alistair Graham: No.
Q150 Mrs Ellman: Either in relation
to 7 July or in relation to the general operation?
Sir Alistair Graham: No, there
has been no approach to us.
Q151 Chairman: I am sorry, before
Mrs Ellman goes on, I just want to be absolutely clear, you are
saying that you traditionally meet with your opposite numbers,
which is logical and sensible, in the Metropolitan Authority?
Sir Alistair Graham: At an informal
level, through the Association of Police Authorities.
Q152 Chairman: You definitely see
them. This is not something that has been raised by the Authority
members with you?
Sir Alistair Graham: No.
Q153 Chairman: Not in the last six
months?
Sir Alistair Graham: No. We had
one formal meeting—and I cannot remember at whose request
that was, whether it was ours or theirs?
Mr Hemming: It was ours.
Sir Alistair Graham: We just wanted
to clarify, authority to authority, what exactly was our formal
position as far as the proposals.
Q154 Chairman: Would you just repeat
what the attitude of the Authority was to that?
Sir Alistair Graham: The attitude
of the Metropolitan Police Authority was they thought the arrangements,
for example, as far as co-operation on 7 July had been excellent
and had worked extremely well. They were not seeking to press
for an amalgamation between the British Transport Police and the
Metropolitan Police.
Q155 Chairman: How do you interpret
that, Sir Alistair? It is rather interesting. Would it be that
perhaps one or two chief officers wanted to pursue this but not
the Authority?
Sir Alistair Graham: I do not
have any up-to-date explanation about this. As I say, I presume
this was very much a personal agenda of the new Commissioner for
the Metropolitan Police.
Q156 Mrs Ellman: If an amalgamation
did go ahead, what impact would that have on low level crime?
Sir Alistair Graham: I do not
think it would make any great difference as far as low level disorder
which, as you pointed out in previous questions, is one of the
major priorities of the British Transport Police. I was a bit
puzzled by the evidence on this, I am not quite clear where any
extra resources would come from. It is interesting that as far
as London Underground is concerned, we have very excellent relationships
with Transport for London. On regular occasions over the past
two or three years they have reached agreement with us to fund
additional resources to improve security on London Underground.
As far as I am aware in the contact I have had with Transport
for London they are not pressing for any amalgamation as they
are very happy with the quality of service provided by the British
Transport Police.
Q157 Mrs Ellman: Has anybody pressed
for the amalgamation, apart from the Met themselves?
Sir Alistair Graham: No.
Q158 Mr Leech: Can I just come back
to the issue to do with surveys of passengers. Is there any evidence
to suggest that passengers realise that the British Transport
Police is a separate police force?
Sir Alistair Graham: No, there
is not, we have not even done any separate polling on that issue.
I suspect it is not a big issue for the public, they just want
a secure environment in which to travel. We do not have a major
communications exercise with them to draw to their attention that
it is a separate police force, although of course we do have three
Passenger Council representatives on the Authority[15].
— 4 persons who have knowledge of and
experience in relation to persons travellin by railway;
— 4 persons who have knowledge of and
experience in relation to the interests of persons providing railway
services;
— 4 persons who have knowledge of and
experience in relation to the interest of employees of persons
providing railway services;
— 4 persons who have knowledge of the
interestsof persons in Scotland*;
— 4 persons who have knowledge of the
interestsof persons in Wales*;
— 4 persons who have knowledge of the
interestsof persons in England*;
Q159 Mr Leech: There is
no suggestion that passengers think in some way they could be
getting an inferior service from the British Transport Police
than they would be if it was part of a standard police force?
Sir Alistair Graham: Not at all
and, as I say, particularly given the incidents of 7 July and
two weeks later. We have had a tremendous positive public response
to how the British Transport Police dealt with that situation.
15 The Authority membership includes: Back
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