Examination of Witness (Questions 160-179)
SIR ALISTAIR
GRAHAM AND
MR RICHARD
HEMMING
26 APRIL 2006
Q160 Mr Leech: In terms of the expertise
that the British Transport Police officers have in terms of their
training to do with railways, do you think that could potentially
be lost if it was amalgamated within the Metropolitan Police?
Sir Alistair Graham: I am sure
it would be lost. If the British Transport Police is disbanded
and the various elements amalgamated with geographical forces
up and down the country—and the train operating companies
are well aware of this, which is why they support us in this approach—of
course in the amount of training you would have to do for very
large numbers of police officers you would lose the economic advantage
of having a specially trained national specialist police force.
Because of shift changes, and people constantly moving from one
job to another in other police forces, the amount of money you
would have to invest in training people to deal with the health
and safety issues and the commercial aspects of the railways would
be very considerable.
Q161 Mr Leech: Do you think that
if they were amalgamated all officers would have to go through
the same rigorous training on the railways or do you think they
would keep the trained officers separate from the other standard
police officers?
Sir Alistair Graham: I have no
idea because I have not seen any specific proposal that would
spell out what the organisational arrangements would be.
Q162 Chairman: Just a minute, Sir
Alistair, you do not mean that the Metropolitan Police have not
sent you a detailed plain explaining what they have in mind for
your police force, surely?
Sir Alistair Graham: I am afraid,
Chairman, that is the position.
Q163 Chairman: Presumably Sir Ian
has himself come and asked to see you and explained what he has
in mind?
Sir Alistair Graham: No.
Q164 Chairman: And he has not sent
you a detailed letter, a long plan, saying, "This is how
it would operate"?
Sir Alistair Graham: No.
Q165 Chairman: Nor with the suggestion
of how they would replace training in relation to Metropolitan
Police officers?
Sir Alistair Graham: No.
Chairman: How extraordinary.
Q166 Mr Leech: Do you have an opinion
on what would happen to the remaining part of the British Transport
Police?
Sir Alistair Graham: I think the
only realistic option would be to separate them out into whatever
arrangement of police forces we have once this current restructuring
has taken place.
Q167 Mr Martlew: Just on that point,
the extra training would not just be for the Met Police, it would
be for all the police in the United Kingdom?
Sir Alistair Graham: Yes. If you
are going to deal with the health and safety and commercial aspects,
you heard the Chief Constable stress the high performance standard,
which was very strongly appreciated, all train operating companies
mention it. For example, if there is a fatality on the line the
ability to get the rail system up and running again I think the
most recent target is below 90 minutes. The British Transport
Police have a very long record of achieving that performance target.
I think it would be very difficult if you break up the national
specialist police force for the railway system to keep achieving
that target.
Q168 Mr Martlew: Can I go to the
finances now. Do you think the train operating companies pay enough
money to support your force?
Sir Alistair Graham: No, they
do not, but I would want to qualify that. Since the Authority
was created and came into operation in July 2004, they have had
to face very substantial increases in the charges that they pay
for the British Transport Police, something like 40% increase
over a short period of time when inflation has been between two
and 3%. The first emergency increase in charges, which was introduced
in the September after the July in 2004, the rail representatives
on the Authority voted in favour of that. The following year we
had some difficult conversations but in the end we were able to
reach agreement that they would abstain on the particular vote,
though on the understanding that we would make representations
to the Secretary of State for Transport about the future funding
arrangements for the British Transport Police, which we did. Then
the budget that has just recently been agreed for 2006-07, we
managed, once again, some tough conversations, to get unanimity
on the Authority for that budget. I do not think we can say that
the train operating companies have not positively responded to
the agenda that we have set for a proper programme of investment
to ensure that the British Transport Police is up to and fit for
purpose in the 21st century. They are very unhappy about what
they see as the high level of costs for the British Transport
police. I have some sympathy with them in that we have obviously
had to take on extra responsibilities as far as counter-terrorism
is concerned because it is a very big focus for the police. They
can understandably say, "Well, given this is a benefit to
the whole country, because if there was a serious terrorist attack
on the railway system of this country that would damage the whole
British economy not just the commercial interests of the train
operating companies, should not those counter-terrorism costs
be met out of state funding?"
Q169 Mr Martlew: You are saying,
yes, sometimes you reluctantly agree but there have been indications
given to this Committee that some are even more reluctant to pay
up. Is that correct and, if it is, which companies are they?
Sir Alistair Graham: I do not
want to go into the bad debt side of it because we have very few
bad debts as far as the train operating companies are concerned.
There is no doubt about it, some of the train operating companies
whose capacity to make profits is very restricted by the nature
of the franchise that they have, do find the charges we have to
levy straight off their bottom line and, therefore, regularly
make representations to people like myself and members of the
Authority about the recent increases.
Q170 Mr Martlew: Do you believe that
the structure for getting payments is the right one to take the
service forward?
Sir Alistair Graham: I do not
think it is sustainable in the longer term. It may well be once
we have got through this investment period, and as a result of
reaching agreement with them we have had to defer some particular
projects that we would have liked to have proceeded with. I think,
in fact, if we had the user pays for a substantial chunk of the
responsibilities of the British Transport Police, if we had state
funding for the counter-terrorism responsibilities, then I think
that would make a very substantial difference to the tensions
we currently experience with the train operating companies about
the funding of the British Transport Police. Where I fundamentally
disagree with the train operating companies, they believe, as
part of the review that is taking place that there should be a
refocused British Transport Police and that that could come out
at a very cheaper level. I think that is a bit of a fantasy which
would mean we would not have a serious police force, it would
be something of a toy town police force rather than a police force
meeting national standards.
Q171 Mr Martlew: You are saying the
train operating companies are talking about reducing the level
of your police force on the network?
Sir Alistair Graham: They have
put the argument to me that they believe that their needs, as
railway companies, could be met much more cheaply with reduced
responsibilities. My response to that is can you spell out for
me what you want the British Transport Police not to do that they
are currently doing, and I never get a very clear answer to that.
Q172 Chairman: That is very helpful.
In the past, they have not been particularly good about paying
up, have they, Sir Alistair, but do you think it is getting better?
Sir Alistair Graham: In the three
or four years prior to the Authority being set up the level of
increases were at a very low level, below the level of inflation,
and that was undoubtedly damaging because they had plenty of messages
from Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary saying that the infrastructure
of the British Transport Police was creeping. I got a clear steer
from the Secretary of State for Transport that we needed to address
these legacy issues which I have attempted to do over the first
two or three years of the Authority. I would like to very much
pay credit to the Department for Transport for having coming forward
with funding for capital funding for the British Transport Police
on a more general scale than existed hitherto and also helping
with the specific costs of counter-terrorism.
Q173 Chairman: They did give a one-off
payment, did they not, in relation to that?
Sir Alistair Graham: 7 July costs,
yes.
Q174 Chairman: I do not want to be
unkind but the fact that the Association of Train Operating Companies
thinks the Government should pay and they should not does not
come as an awful surprise to me. Do you really think that in fact
one of the things that the Authority ought to be doing in the
not too distant future is talking to the Government about the
form of funding for any operational expenses that arise outwith
the railway system?
Sir Alistair Graham: It is an
issue we have already raised; I have raised it directly with the
Secretary of State for Transport. Every time he makes a public
statement on behalf of the Government he reinforces the user pays
principle. In the letter that he sent to me agreeing to provide
the additional costs arising out of 7 July, he went to considerable
lengths to stress in that letter that this was a one-off payment,
it should not be seen as conceding in principle that they were
going to pay for counter-terrorism costs in the future.
Q175 Chairman: In that case could
I take you down a slightly different line. What would be the Authority's
view of the suggestion that instead of having a proper police
force, properly trained, we should go back to the old idea—which
might suit the train operating companies—of a private security
firm taking responsibility? Would that be efficient and acceptable?
Sir Alistair Graham: No, I do
not think it would. I think the railway system is too important
for this country, and for the economy of the country, to privatise
the policing arrangements of the railway system. I have to say,
I recently had a meeting, before we signed off the budget for
this year, with all the key players of the really big railway
companies and we were unanimous at the end that we wanted to retain
a national specialist police force for the railways. They were
all agreed about that.
Q176 Chairman: Did the Authority
discuss the suggestion of the Office of the Rail Regulator that
there should be some duties taken away from the British Transport
Police, for example patrolling the station?
Sir Alistair Graham: Certainly
the rail regulator has not sought to have any discussion with
the Authority about that. Obviously under this idea, which I am
sure the Secretary of State is seriously looking at, of a refocused
British Transport Police one is conscious that the development—
Q177 Chairman: Forgive me, Sir Alistair,
what would you refocus the British Transport Police force on except
transport?
Sir Alistair Graham: No.
Q178 Chairman: I just think perhaps
I am missing something.
Sir Alistair Graham: No.
Q179 Chairman: A refocused transport
police, what are we going to focus on, some architecture, conservation?
Sir Alistair Graham: No. In my
view, because I do not know what is meant by a refocus—
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