Examination of Witness (Questions 182-199)
DEREK TWIGG
MP AND HAZEL
BLEARS MP
26 APRIL 2006
Q182 Chairman: Good afternoon, Minister.
Would you introduce yourself for the record?
Derek Twigg: I am Derek Twigg,
the Railway Minister.
Q183 Chairman: What are your emerging
conclusions of the review of the British Transport Police?
Derek Twigg: If it is possible,
Chairman, and it would probably answer the question you have just
asked as well, I would like to say a few words.
Q184 Chairman: You want to say something,
do you?
Derek Twigg: Just a few words.
Q185 Chairman: May I beg your pardon.
Please tell us.
Derek Twigg: I am sure you will
stop me if I go on for too long.
Q186 Chairman: I would never dream
of stopping you, Minister. Please just tell us whatever you want
to.
Derek Twigg: Clearly in terms
of the review I think it is important to put on record that with
the events of New York and Madrid and the terrible events in London
in July last year, and of course the review of the strategic police
forces around the country, the Secretary of State and the Department
felt it was right that at this point we should have a look at
the BTP's role in terms of its focus and also alternatives. I
am sure you will understand that review is ongoing, so in terms
of the amount of information I will be able to give you I will
be limited because we have not got come to conclusions yet. What
I can tell you is that we are looking to see that we get the best
possible policing for the railway and the personal security of
those who use it. The options we have come down to are that of
either giving the responsibility to the strategic forces or refocusing
the BTP. Currently we are spending most of our effort and time
on the issue of refocusing at this point in time. That is where
we are.
Q187 Chairman: Have you framed a
clear definition of what you mean by "refocusing"?
Derek Twigg: Yes. We want to make
sure that we get a British Transport Police force that is fit
for the 21st century and the best possible policing we can for
the railway, but within that looking at whether we can improve
things, whether the focus is right in terms of should it continue
to deal with any murders or fraud, et cetera, should it be more
focused on low level crime and antisocial behaviour. Also in terms
of the train operating companies, as you will be aware, Chairman,
in terms of their role some of them have differences and have
expressed concerns about the resources they are paying for and
exactly what they are getting for that in terms of looking at
their role and their needs in the future, not just what the British
Transport Police would do but in terms of the funding for that.
Q188 Chairman: Minister, may I interrupt
to say I am sorry but, it is that old joke, we started without
you. Thank you very much for coming. We will come to you in a
moment, if we may.
Hazel Blears: Okay.
Q189 Chairman: Is the status quo
in relation to the British Transport Police one of the alternatives
you are looking at refocusing?
Derek Twigg: In a sense, no. It
could turn out that way, to be honest, but we want to look at
it in terms of the issues that have occurred in the last couple
of years or so, the review of the strategic forces, whether or
not the policing from British Transport Police focuses on what
are the most important issues in terms of antisocial behaviour,
low level crime, and whether or not the resources are best in
that area and the way they are set up and the funding in relation
to the train operating companies and the other funders.
Q190 Chairman: I want to be absolutely
clear. Do we both agree that low level crime is frankly what the
British Transport Police deal with most of the time?
Derek Twigg: They deal with that
a lot of the time, that is correct. In fact, I was at an event
today and Mr Johnston, the Chief Constable, was dealing with that
exact issue with new accreditation officers who have been put
in place at St Pancras.
Q191 Chairman: So that is what you
are looking at.
Derek Twigg: Obviously there are
things that we all agree the BTP do brilliantly well.
Q192 Chairman: I am not trying to
catch you out, Minister. When I am being rotten you will get the
idea. I am trying to work out what it is that you are using as
the parameters for your examination. All I want you to tell the
Committee is what you really mean by "refocusing". We
have got the British Transport Police, they are a specialist police,
they are specially trained, some of the train operating companies
are not violently happy about having to pay for them, which is
not entirely surprising, and you now say you are looking at them
vis-a"-vis the way they handle low level crime. We know that
the bulk of their work is low level crime. Could you just tell
me exactly what it is you are looking at in relation to the work
of the British Transport Police?
Derek Twigg: Maybe I did not explain
properly at the beginning but I will try and you will tell me
if I am not doing it, Chairman.
Q193 Chairman: It is possible.
Derek Twigg: I am sure you will
let me know. Because of the current review of the strategic forces,
which is clearly something we need to take account of, obviously
the things that happened particularly in London last year in terms
of the bombings in July, and also in terms of what they do now,
is it the best way to deliver that particular policing? As I say,
that may be the case in terms of certain things they are doing
but would they be better putting resources more into low level
crime, antisocial behaviour and route crime issues rather than
other issues that they might deal with?
Q194 Chairman: So fundamentally what
you are looking at is not whether you will have something like
the British Transport Police, which is specialised, but whether
what you have got is being used to the best of its ability, whether
it is properly funded and related to the job it has to do?
Derek Twigg: That is the refocusing
work we are doing at the moment.
Chairman: Thank you, that is very helpful.
Q195 Mrs Ellman: I would like to
ask both Ministers what problems have been identified in relation
to 7 July or the other work of the British Transport Police that
relates to the structure of having the British Transport Police
separate from the Met?
Derek Twigg: It is not so much
the problems that have been identified by that but are there any
lessons we can learn in terms of how the policing was—
Q196 Mrs Ellman: First I am asking
the question I am asking, which is what problems have been identified
or maybe there have not been any?
Derek Twigg: In terms of the role
of the British Transport Police?
Q197 Mrs Ellman: In relation to the
current structure, yes. Specific problems, not theoretical ones.
Derek Twigg: From my point of
view, I have to say we have not had any specific problems in terms
of the British Transport Police but what we want to find out is
whether there are any lessons that need to be learned because
they do have a very important security role as well. That is where
we are at. That is one of the things we are looking at as part
of the review.
Q198 Mrs Ellman: But there are not
any specific problems in relation to 7 July that you are aware
of?
Derek Twigg: Not in itself that
we have identified as a reason for the review. Partly we are looking
at whether there are any issues arising from that as well that
we need to take account of in terms of any refocusing of the British
Transport Police. The issue about whether things could have been
co-ordinated better, whether there was an issue around how the
BTP responded, all those things will be looked at, but clearly
the response was very good on the day and a lot of tremendous
work was put in by the British Transport Police.
Hazel Blears: Chairman, can I
first of all apologise for not being here right at the start of
your proceedings.
Q199 Chairman: No apologies required,
Minister, I am afraid I did take advantage of the few moments
I had to seize upon your colleague. I do not get the chance to
seize many men very often these days!
Hazel Blears: Obviously I am going
to agree with my colleague to the extent that there are always
lessons that we can learn. I do not think we have got any specific
issues that have been thrown up to us as matters relating to structure
which we have to address immediately in order to fulfil our capability
around response to terrorism. Clearly there is going to be a close
review of what happened, were there ways in which communication
could have been better, and I think any organisation which tells
a committee of this nature that everything was 100% and there
was not anything that could be done better would find themselves
getting fairly short shrift. Together we will be looking very
closely at what happened and whether or not there are improvements
that we can make. Certainly the assessment that has been done
of the British Transport Police around counter-terrorism shows
that there is a commendable level of understanding of the counter-terrorism
role at every level of the staff in the British Transport Police,
which I think is very encouraging. They have got significant exposure
to these risks and, therefore, they are used to dealing with issues
whether it is suspect packages, trying to target hard the railways
around this, but clearly the railways are a key terrorist target
and, therefore, the ability of the British Transport Police to
respond properly is really important to us. I am not saying there
are any specific problems but I am absolutely sure that we can
learn lessons and do things even better in the future than we
are doing them now. There is an issue around intelligence gathering
for the British Transport Police and making sure that they are
able to gather intelligence but also that that co-ordinates with
the rest of Special Branch activity and the way in which we co-ordinate
intelligence at the centre so that we do not duplicate and have
rival intelligence gathering streams but are gathering intelligence
which can help us all.
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