Examination of Witness (Questions 200-219)
DEREK TWIGG
MP AND HAZEL
BLEARS MP
26 APRIL 2006
Q200 Mrs Ellman: Could I ask the
same question in relation to the general work of the British Transport
Police separate from the terrorism issue to do with the way they
deal with crime in relation to rail. Are there any particular
problems that either of you are aware of?
Derek Twigg: Clearly overall crime
has come down on the railways. There are issues around violent
crime, et cetera, but obviously the targets that Mr Johnston has
set have been met. It comes down to are there any lessons we can
learn and given the review that is taking place of strategic forces
is there anything we need to take account of. We want the best
possible policing for our railways and we want to try to achieve
that. I do not think even Mr Johnston and the BTP would say they
are doing everything perfectly, it is how we can continue to improve
that and that is why we have been working with them on the refocusing
and that work is still ongoing.
Q201 Mrs Ellman: Are there any particular
problems to do with the current structures in relation to their
normal work?
Hazel Blears: Clearly the review
is ongoing. British Transport Police are accountable to the Secretary
of State for Transport and not to the Home Office, and I am very
conscious of that. We are working closely on the review and I
do not want to trespass on my colleague's responsibility. There
have been really good relationships between the British Transport
Police and other forces about who should investigate which kind
of crime. For example, if we look at murder, which is one of the
protected services that we have been looking at in the general
review, very often murders will be investigated by the Home Office
forces but if there is a specific case—last year there were
three murders on the railways, two of them were investigated by
Home Office forces and one of them was investigated by the British
Transport Police—there appears to be a good accommodation
about the right people dealing with the right issue.
Q202 Chairman: Since these three
murders have been mentioned before, you are not aware of any problems
that arose either in relation to the investigation or—
Derek Twigg: No. As you well know,
Chairman, obviously murders can take a great deal of time and
whether it is best that the strategic forces investigate or—
Q203 Chairman: I understand the theory.
We are asking you something different. Since these three murders
have been specifically mentioned more than once today, are you
aware that in those three cases there were problems between the
British Transport Police and the strategic forces elsewhere?
Derek Twigg: No.
Chairman: Thank you. All I wanted was
a no.
Q204 Mrs Ellman: If the Metropolitan
Police were to take over the work of the British Transport Police
in London, what implications would that have for the British Transport
Police outside of London? Could it still remain as an entity or
would it have to change?
Derek Twigg: One of the reasons
that we are not continuing on the work is because there was a
risk that if we took out all the Greater London officers the cost
could disproportionately increase. Also, it would put pressure
on the rest of the British Transport Police forces around the
country and you would then have two different sets of police forces
dealing with the railway issues. That was the reason why we felt
we would not pursue that option any further.
Q205 Mrs Ellman: Could you clarify
what you mean by that? What are you not pursuing?
Derek Twigg: We have now narrowed
it down in terms of our current work on this particular issue
either to the work which is basically the BTP officers going out
to the strategic forces and dealing with the issues of railways
in their areas or we look at refocusing whether there are any
further improvements we can make in terms of how the British Transport
Police police the railways. That is where almost all of our effort
is now being directed on the refocusing of the BTP.
Q206 Mrs Ellman: That includes British
Transport Police in London?
Derek Twigg: That includes all
British Transport Police.
Q207 Mrs Ellman: In 2004 when the
Department replied to the last report that the Transport Select
Committee did on the British Transport Police, the Government
stated that it agreed with the Committee that "the national
railway network is best protected by a unified police force providing
a dedicated specialist service enabling it to give proper priority
to the policing of the railways". Is that still the Department's
view?
Derek Twigg: Clearly because of
the issues that I have outlined already to the Committee, and
I will not go over them, we did not feel that precluded us having
a look at the BTP in the light of the circumstances I have described
this afternoon.
Q208 Mrs Ellman: You would agree
with the central tenet of that statement?
Derek Twigg: Clearly there is
a very, very strong argument to continue to have a strategic police
force policing the British Rail network but we want to make sure
that is the best possible policing and we get the best possible
service for the people who use the railways and that is why we
are looking at the refocusing at the moment.
Mrs Ellman: Thank you.
Q209 Graham Stringer: I think those
answers are very helpful, Minister, but I just want to make sure
that I understand them. What you are saying in simple language
is that the choice is going to be breaking up the British Transport
Police, handing them over to all the strategic authorities, or
keeping the British Transport Police but looking at their priorities.
That is what refocusing means, is it not?
Derek Twigg: Yes.
Q210 Graham Stringer: Can you expand
a little on what change of priorities there might be for the British
Transport Police?
Derek Twigg: For instance, whether
they deal with murder at all and in terms of fraud issues whether
it is ticket fraud or other types of fraud. One of the key areas
is not just the British Transport Police but in terms of the train
operating companies and those funding British Transport Police
because some of them are unhappy and not necessarily supportive
in terms of the current set-up. If you take Transport for London
who have a particularly good relationship with the British Transport
Police, the relationship works very well, there is good communication,
I would like to see that developed with all the other train operating
companies to see whether we can improve it and gain a better working
relationship, a better understanding of what the requirement of
the industry is and in terms of what British Transport Police
can provide within the budget constraints in which they live.
Q211 Graham Stringer: The Met have
made clear their view that they would like control of the railways
within Greater London. I know this is a difficult question because
some of the new strategic authorities do not exist but there will
be authorities like Greater Manchester that do. Has any other
police force said that they would like to police the railways
in their area?
Derek Twigg: I am not aware of
that, no.
Q212 Graham Stringer: That is interesting.
As part of the option you are considering, if in the future you
go for British Transport Police refocused or reprioritised, is
privatisation being considered of the whole British Transport
Police?
Derek Twigg: No, that is not something
we are considering at the moment. Clearly we have a public interest
in it as a Department and, as you know, we have significantly
increased the capital funding for British Transport Force which
is £30 million from 2005-06 onwards for three years. We are
not looking at that option.
Graham Stringer: Thank you very much.
Q213 Mr Goodwill: It seems that both
Departments have taken a very pragmatic approach to this proposed
merger, dare I say in marked contrast to other mergers around
the country. Given that as far as both Departments are concerned
this merger between the British Transport Police and the Met is
dead in the water, do you think that the Government have a responsibility
to prevent the Met spending any more time and effort on preparing
for this merger which it seems nobody particularly wants apart
from the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police?
Hazel Blears: First of all, I
think it would be wrong to prejudge the outcome of the Department
for Transport's review. We are not due to get the recommendations
until the middle or end of May.
Q214 Mr Goodwill: I think we have
had a few signals.
Hazel Blears: We may well have
had some signals but we do not have the outcome of the review
and, therefore, we want to look at those recommendations very
carefully. Obviously we are working closely together in terms
of the work that is going on looking at priorities. One of my
main concerns is to try to make sure that we keep the intelligence
not just around terrorism but around other issues to make sure
we make those links and keep those links very strong for us. In
terms of the Metropolitan Police's position, clearly that is a
matter for the Commissioner and the Metropolitan Police Authority
in terms of the decisions they make about what proposals they
want to put forward. Obviously we will look very closely at whatever
proposals are made in the light of the outcome of the review.
I think it would be wrong for me here and now to speculate about
what the Met should or should not do before we have got the results
of that programme.
Q215 Chairman: Could I ask you about
this business of intelligence because you have mentioned it twice.
At what level is there a problem? Presumably the intelligence
that is gathered largely by the British Transport Police will
come from their expertise on what is on the lines, what is on
the stations, the people they deal with. Are you suggesting somehow
or other when that is all garnered it does not get translated
into the other security services? Is that what is the burden of
the complaint?
Hazel Blears: No. I do not think
there is a specific complaint about it. All I am seeking to say
is I think intelligence of every kind, not just in relation to
high level incidents but intelligence about everyday matters,
is increasingly important in the way we organise policing in this
country, whether it is intelligence about antisocial behaviour
or all the way through the levels. What I am keen to do is to
make sure that the expertise and knowledge that the British Transport
Police undoubtedly have in their environment feeds into the rest
of our system because that makes us able to target resources in
the most effective way to get the best results. That is not necessarily
a structural issue but it is an issue about making sure that there
is good communication and people are working closely together.
I am not saying that is a structural issue that needs to be addressed
by changing the structure at the moment, that is why I am keen
to see the outcome of the work that the Department for Transport
are doing.
Q216 Mr Goodwill: Do you think there
is an argument that as the British Transport Police are taking
on an increasing role in the war against terror that more of their
budget should be paid from central Government rather than train
operating companies because of the overall benefit to the country
rather than just the narrow interests of the train operators?
Derek Twigg: As I said to Mr Stringer,
we have significantly increased the amount of funding we give
to the BTP and that is very important in terms of the way the
railway is operating, in terms of intelligence and policing generally.
You will remember that Her Majesty's Inspectorate's report made
some criticism about the IT systems and record systems, et cetera,
and they have had investment in terms of radio systems and new
cars. There has been quite a lot of investment in recognising
that. We have also given extra money in terms of the security
issues that arose from last July.
Q217 Mr Martlew: I am quite fascinated
by this conversation. The Department for Transport seems to be
saying that we are looking at two options, one of keeping the
British Transport Police and not making any changes and the other
to disband it and give it across to the Home Office. Have both
ministries looked at the possibility of transferring responsibility
for the British Transport Police to the Home Office? You have
talked about getting rid of it and therefore transferring it to
the new police authorities but have you ever thought about just
transferring responsibility to the Home Office? Have the Home
Office ever thought of taking it over?
Derek Twigg: Clearly if you disbanded
it the policing for the railways would go to the Home Office on
a strategic force level. It is the British Transport Police and
we think the responsibility should lie with the Secretary of State.
Q218 Mr Martlew: You are saying if
you decide to keep it—
Derek Twigg: It will still remain.
Q219 Mr Martlew: But if you get rid
of it then it will go to the Home Office?
Derek Twigg: That is because it
will become part of the strategic forces' responsibilities. They
would have to determine this force by force with the Home Office.
That is my understanding of it.
Hazel Blears: Certainly we have
not made any bid to take over the British Transport Police. Clearly
it remains very much accountable to the Secretary of State for
Transport.
Chairman: You ought to take some lessons
from the Metropolitan Police, Minister.
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