Examination of Witness (Questions 220-239)
DEREK TWIGG
MP AND HAZEL
BLEARS MP
26 APRIL 2006
Q220 Mr Goodwill: I think they have
got enough on their plate at the moment.
Hazel Blears: Not necessarily
as ambitious as them perhaps. Clearly it would not be a matter
of simply handing it over to the Home Office. Because of the tripartite
nature of policing in this country it would be a matter for the
strategic forces and their police authorities as well.
Q221 Mr Martlew: Ultimately reporting
to you?
Hazel Blears: Indeed.
Q222 Mr Martlew: At present the train
operating companies pay but if it goes to the police forces what
happens to that payment?
Derek Twigg: If the train operator
wants to buy in a certain amount of policing that is what they
do by the normal funding arrangements that exist in terms of their
local strategic forces. It would not be different from that.
Hazel Blears: There has been some
analysis done that looks at the general provision of policing
because quite a lot of the operators pay their business rates
and they are entitled to general levels of service, but if they
want to have specific levels of service above that they would
need to enter into an agreement for those specific operations
to be funded with each of the strategic forces. That is my understanding
of that analysis.
Q223 Mr Martlew: We have heard today
they are trying to reduce the amount they pay and the likelihood
is they are not going to take that option. Does that mean we could
end up with the local police forces looking after the stations
and the rest of the rail transport structure without any more
money?
Derek Twigg: Part of the work
we have done, and you have hit upon an important point, Mr Martlew,
is one of the disbenefits that may be perceived of not having
British Transport Police as a strategic separate force set up
in the way it is, is whether the railway would get the same amount
of attention and funding from strategic forces if it went out
to strategic forces. That is one of the issues that some people
argue would be a disbenefit but clearly we are talking hypothetically.
Q224 Chairman: It would be a fairly
great disbenefit if you are telling us that the railway system
has operational and political effects way before simply being
a transport system, would it not?
Derek Twigg: I am not really saying
that.
Q225 Chairman: You cannot have it
both ways. If the railway system is something that is fundamental
and is at risk because it is an obvious target because it has
implications way beyond the business of running trains up and
down it, you cannot seriously say if for any reason the train
operating companies did not want to pay for it or to have a professional
and specialised police force it would not really matter because
we would leave that to the Gods presumably.
Derek Twigg: I am not saying that,
Chairman.
Q226 Chairman: Which is almost the
equivalent of the Cheshire Police Force!
Derek Twigg: That is why we are
having the ongoing discussions and work is continuing on the refocusing
although we have not come to a conclusion at this point. I tried
to explain some of the issues that need to be considered to Mr
Martlew.
Chairman: Obviously, that is what you
are here for.
Q227 Mr Martlew: Would the Home Office
and the police forces be happy with a situation where there was
not dedicated money coming across?
Hazel Blears: Clearly at the moment
the British Transport Police is largely funded by the train operating
companies and it is really important that they make that contribution.
That is why I was saying I do not want to prejudge the outcome
of the review that we are going to get in May because these issues
are very important to us about looking at the long-term future,
making sure that people are safe on our railway system, both staff
and passengers, which is the main mission of the British Transport
Police. Clearly we would have significant concerns. We want to
make sure that whatever organisation we get in the future is able
to provide that degree of security for passengers, staff and users
of the railway service.
Q228 Graham Stringer: I just want
to follow up the questions Mr Martlew has been asking. We heard
earlier on that there is a different pension scheme for the British
Transport Police compared to the other police forces. There is
obviously different funding and different kinds of training. In
looking at the option of transferring the British Transport Police
to the strategic police authorities, have you made any estimate
of the transactional costs of the transitional arrangements?
Derek Twigg: That is what we would
need to work on. It is not just that, but if you were to transfer
there would be legislative implications which would need to be
looked at in terms of the timings and the rest of it. The whole
lot would need to be looked at if we decided to do that.
Q229 Graham Stringer: I think in
the consultation paper on the amalgamation of certain police forces
to strategic police forces there were estimates, maybe optimistic
estimates, of the costs of the amalgamation. Have you got any
ballpark figures for the costs of transferring the British Transport
Police to strategic police authorities?
Derek Twigg: At this stage no
because, as I say, we are still undertaking the review and much
of our work is around the refocusing. Clearly I would not want
to put out figures that may not turn out to be in any way correct.
Q230 Graham Stringer: Have you come
across any other difficulties like amalgamating the pension schemes
because they are completely different, the retraining of officers?
Are there any more hurdles that you have come across?
Derek Twigg: These are all things
that would have to be looked at if we decided that it would not
be right to continue with the British Transport Police.
Q231 Chairman: Does the Home Office
agree with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister's assessment
that the Metropolitan Police Service is "not held to account
as efficiently and effectively as it could be"?
Hazel Blears: No, I do not agree
with that assessment. I think that the Metropolitan Police Authority
does a pretty good job in holding the Commissioner to account.
There are always issues about whether we could do it more efficiently.
There has been a consultation around the role of the Mayor in
terms of the police authority and whether or not there are too
many players, if you like, on the landscape in London in relation
to accountability. Those discussions have been ongoing. I think
the Metropolitan Police Authority does a pretty good job at directing
things.
Q232 Chairman: Have you had complaints
specifically about too many layers of bureaucracy in London as
opposed to elsewhere in relation to the British Transport Police?
Hazel Blears: Not specifically
in relation to the British Transport Police. The London position
is slightly different from other areas in the country in that
we already have a semblance of regional government and then we
have got the government offices as well. One of the issues that
sometimes do cause some difficulties is having those two layers
and how they interact, but that is not in relation to the British
Transport Police specifically.
Q233 Chairman: The boundaries of
the Metropolitan Police and London Underground do not coincide,
do they? Could you tell us how that would work if the Metropolitan
Police Service took over the British Transport Police in London?
Hazel Blears: I have not seen
any evidence from the Metropolitan Police about how they would
propose that should happen. At the moment they are responsible
for putting their view as the Metropolitan Police Service, that
is not a matter for the Home Office.
Q234 Chairman: You have not seen
the detailed plan from the Metropolitan Police as to how they
would operate if they took over?
Hazel Blears: No, I have not,
Chairman.
Q235 Chairman: Are we to assume that
they have simply made a general statement and they have not given
it to you? As far as we can gather it seems to have got lost in
the post in relation to the sorts of suggestions they want to
make to the British Transport Police as well. Minister, have you
had detailed suggestions from the Metropolitan Police as to how
they would operate differently?
Derek Twigg: No, I have not seen
detailed suggestions from the Metropolitan Police.
Q236 Chairman: What the costs would
be and how it would affect them if for one reason or another the
rail companies did not pay in the same way?
Derek Twigg: No, I have not seen
a detailed proposition.
Q237 Chairman: You have not seen
any of that? Does it seem to you that a great deal of research
has gone into this suggestion from the Metropolitan Police, or
am I missing something?
Hazel Blears: I can only say that
I have not seen their detailed programme plan about what the position
would be if they were to take over those functions.
Q238 Chairman: But they have indicated
to you that such a plan exists?
Hazel Blears: I am not sure they
have even been that specific to me. Certainly I have not had sight
of a plan.
Q239 Chairman: Minister, would you
be prepared, when you are talking about what could be the dismemberment
of the British Transport Police, to express some view of what
this would do in relation to county forces? As you know, because
of the strategic reorganisation of many of the existing police
forces they are already in a state of flux and they are not overly
happy about their finances. Has anyone discussed in any detail
the effect of such changes on the restructuring of existing forces?
Hazel Blears: Not as far as the
current restructuring programme is concerned. Clearly there would
be a very different timescale in terms of the British Transport
Police from the current restructuring process that is going on
because if we were to get the abolition of the British Transport
Police we would need primary legislation to do that. At the moment
the restructuring process in the first tier of authorities is
in the process of public consultation. That ends on 2 July, I
think, and at that point the Home Secretary needs to decide whether
or not he is going to make orders of amalgamation and the new
strategic forces in the first group, which includes the North
West, as you are absolutely well aware, would be likely to come
into effect from April 2007. If the British Transport Police,
depending on the outcome of the review, were to go over to the
strategic forces that would be at a later date and we would have
to look again at what the implications were of any such amalgamation.
That is very much speculation and hypothetical in the future.
Derek Twigg: All I can add is
that a lot of our work is going on the refocusing at the moment
but if something appeared in the next few weeks that completely
changed our mind then a lot more work would have to be done on
the areas that you have just outlined.
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