Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-76)
MR BRIAN
SMITH, MR
DICK HELLING,
MR BILL
WOOLLEY, MR
PAUL CROWTHER,
MR TONY
CROSS AND
MR JOHN
HODGKINS
21 JUNE 2006
Q60 Clive Efford: How do we resolve
that? If there is a barrier to tackling social exclusion through
commercially provided services, how do we overcome that problem?
Mr Hodgkins: From the local authority
perspective, one of the greatest burdens is the burden of having
to try and build confidence in a system that is in many respects
dependent on short-term funding streams. We have heard about Challenge
funds and we have heard about Kickstart funding and a range of
other rural transport grants in particular that have been to a
very limited timescale, and it is quite challenging to the local
authority to actually be able to go out and deliver a project
when at the back of their mind they know there is only a three-year
funding stream to back it up.
Q61 Chairman: I am a bit worried
about some of these things we have not talked about—frequency
of cleaning buses, for instance, and late night buses. Do your
vulnerable users feel safe in your buses late at night?
Mr Crowther: The feedback that
we get is that yes they do. Within the City Council we have a
partnership called the Safer Streets initiative which involves
the City Council, transport operators, the police and the community,
and we address what are seen as being the major issues. I think
I mentioned earlier that Brighton is fortunate in having almost
a 24-hour economy and people are quite happy to be in the city
centre quite late at night because of the city's own CCTV cameras,
those on the buses, the behaviour of people; it is all a package.
Q62 Chairman: What is the level of
crime on your buses, Mr Smith?
Mr Smith: To my knowledge ours
is very low and I think that is true right through to our park
and ride sites where literately we have a handful of incidents
through the year. It is very low. The buses are fully covered
by CCTV and to hear of an incident on a bus it is unusual.
Q63 Chairman: Mr Woolley, are your
buses covered by CCTV?
Mr Woolley: They are, yes, and
like Cambridge the incidence of crime and disorder on buses is
very low. They are reported in a very high-profile way because
they are so rare.
Q64 Chairman: Are your buses generally
safe and well-maintained?
Mr Woolley: They are safe and
well maintained. We introduced park and ride over 10 years ago
and we were very prescriptive about the way buses on park and
ride were maintained in terms of cleanliness and the way that
they were washed.
Q65 Chairman: Does that tip over
into the other buses because the park and ride, as you specifically
told us, is aimed at your middle-class customers to get them out
of their cars. It is only out in the rural areas they have the
broken down ones that they cannot get in.
Mr Woolley: I do not think we
ever told you that, Chairman.
Q66 Chairman: I did not think you
said that, Mr Woolley. I paraphrase, as they say.
Mr Woolley: I was going on to
say that the example we set to the bus companies and because we
were licensing that service, they realised that we were specifying
something they should be doing as well because the growth in park
and ride could be replicated on the staged carriage services.
In the FTR, this new concept vehicle we talked about earlier,
we have entered into a quality partnership specifically on that
with the bus companies where they volunteered daily washing and
cleaning, deep cleaning every fortnight, and a whole range of
things to make sure that the quality of the vehicle was maintained,
the operator recognising the importance to his business.
Q67 Chairman: Mr Smith, a similar
story?
Mr Smith: Absolutely and I was
just reflecting, having been involved in the business for some
10 years or so, so back then the position was quite variable,
shall we say. Today you rarely see a dirty bus which is out on
the streets. When you use the buses—and I do use the buses
as one of the people in the area—you generally find a good
experience there. That is absolutely vital. We get a lot of feedback
both on our own supported services but also on the commercial
services.
Q68 Chairman: Do you get passenger
complaints about rude drivers and bad driving?
Mr Smith: Of course we do. That
goes to some extent with the territory.
Q69 Chairman: What sort of level
are we talking about?
Mr Smith: I will quote a specific
for you. On our park and ride services, which are carrying about
1.6 million passengers per year, we get about 50 complaints a
month. Interestingly, one of the most regular complaints is that
"the bus pulled away when I was approaching the bus".
Of course, that is a reflection of when does a bus pull away when
there is a continual stream of people wanting to get on? The serious
side is that there are odd incidents, the fact the bus was being
driven jerkily or the like. I think it is important that we are
monitoring that and it is again part of having to care for the
customer and, rather like Mr Woolley, we have tried to work with
the bus companies to say it is really important that we get those
messages across.
Q70 Chairman: Is that normal Mr Hodgkins?
Mr Hodgkins: I think it is quite
representative, Chairman, yes. I think the level of complaint
that certainly comes to the attention of the local authority about
bus services is remarkably low given the total number of customers
there are.
Q71 Chairman: How many authorities
insist on proper formal bus driving training?
Mr Hodgkins: I cannot answer that
question precisely. I think it would be fair to say that those
authorities who have invested in public transport as a measure
to encourage modal shift have done so with quality standards very
much in mind and have invested very heavily with their partners
in the operating sector in ensuring that the training standards,
cleanliness and so on are part of the overall package that the
customer is offered.
Q72 Chairman: Are we agreeing that
nevertheless the ones that we are talking to today may very well
be the exceptions?
Mr Hodgkins: I think they are
excellent examples.
Q73 Chairman: No, no, no, do not
trade words with me, Mr Hodgkins, that is what I do! I ask you
again: are these people that we are talking about here exceptions?
Mr Hodgkins: No, I believe that
across the country the level of satisfaction with bus services
is improving. There is no doubt, having been in the bus industry
and local authorities for something like 35 years, that the image
of the bus industry has never been wonderful. Certainly there
has been a period in the last 20 years when the reputation of
bus services and the image of bus services has taken a hit, but
I think in general terms the overall level of customer satisfaction
is now starting to rise.
Q74 Chairman: So if we take evidence
that wheels come off buses when they are in service and a number
of vehicle were in use despite having expired Ministry of Transport
certificates, that is not the norm?
Mr Hodgkins: I do not see that
as being the normal standard of service that is delivered across
the country as a whole.
Q75 Chairman: I want to ask you about
the Competition Act. I do not know who would like to give me their
opinion. Should bus services be exempted from the Competition
Act?
Mr Hodgkins: May I kick off, Chairman,
with a comment in general terms and I am sure that there will
be specific examples that others may draw on. As a local transport
authority, we are required to produce a bus strategy which is,
in effect, our statement of intent as to how we wish to see the
public transport service delivered across the local authority's
area and how we intend to prioritise our spend in support of that
network. In many cases that bus strategy will take the form of
an aspiration of what network we would like to see in place. In
some cases those services will be provided commercially and in
some cases they will not. In areas where the commercial service
falls short of our aspiration, we may wish to enter into dialogue
with more than one company in order to secure the enhancement
that is necessary to meet our desired standard of service. In
some respects the Competition Act has proved a barrier to that
dialogue. There are examples of where bus routes run by two competing
operators have generated additional ridership. I can quote several
examples from my local area where that is the case. In many cases
however that has been a short-lived experience, especially when
profit margins are as tight as they are in many of the rural shire
counties that I am familiar with. One of the greatest burdens
that the customer sees, and they are being given the answer that
it is an impact of the Competition Act, is that where there is
more than one operator of commercial services they cannot use
their tickets on the other operator's bus, and even where quality
standards are of an even level and frequency of service is of
an even level, that one factor alone can be a deterrent to passengers.
Q76 Chairman: Are you saying to us,
Mr Hodgkins, that the local authorities could in effect broker
a better service if they were able to do so between bus operators?
Mr Hodgkins: It would be fair
to say that in setting out their objectives in delivering public
transport networks, the local authorities by and large are trying
to deliver a level of service that is in the public interest.
It is very interesting to note that the view of the Office of
Fair Trading is currently that the local authority is not entrusted
with representing the public interest in that it has not got the
power to go out and negotiate between operators in the way that
you suggest. In that sense, yes, there is a disparity in view
over the effectiveness of the Competition Act.
Chairman: Gentlemen, you have all been
very instructive and helpful. Thank you very much indeed, I am
very grateful to you.
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