Select Committee on Transport Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-76)

MR BRIAN SMITH, MR DICK HELLING, MR BILL WOOLLEY, MR PAUL CROWTHER, MR TONY CROSS AND MR JOHN HODGKINS

21 JUNE 2006

  Q60  Clive Efford: How do we resolve that? If there is a barrier to tackling social exclusion through commercially provided services, how do we overcome that problem?

  Mr Hodgkins: From the local authority perspective, one of the greatest burdens is the burden of having to try and build confidence in a system that is in many respects dependent on short-term funding streams. We have heard about Challenge funds and we have heard about Kickstart funding and a range of other rural transport grants in particular that have been to a very limited timescale, and it is quite challenging to the local authority to actually be able to go out and deliver a project when at the back of their mind they know there is only a three-year funding stream to back it up.

  Q61  Chairman: I am a bit worried about some of these things we have not talked about—frequency of cleaning buses, for instance, and late night buses. Do your vulnerable users feel safe in your buses late at night?

  Mr Crowther: The feedback that we get is that yes they do. Within the City Council we have a partnership called the Safer Streets initiative which involves the City Council, transport operators, the police and the community, and we address what are seen as being the major issues. I think I mentioned earlier that Brighton is fortunate in having almost a 24-hour economy and people are quite happy to be in the city centre quite late at night because of the city's own CCTV cameras, those on the buses, the behaviour of people; it is all a package.

  Q62  Chairman: What is the level of crime on your buses, Mr Smith?

  Mr Smith: To my knowledge ours is very low and I think that is true right through to our park and ride sites where literately we have a handful of incidents through the year. It is very low. The buses are fully covered by CCTV and to hear of an incident on a bus it is unusual.

  Q63  Chairman: Mr Woolley, are your buses covered by CCTV?

  Mr Woolley: They are, yes, and like Cambridge the incidence of crime and disorder on buses is very low. They are reported in a very high-profile way because they are so rare.

  Q64  Chairman: Are your buses generally safe and well-maintained?

  Mr Woolley: They are safe and well maintained. We introduced park and ride over 10 years ago and we were very prescriptive about the way buses on park and ride were maintained in terms of cleanliness and the way that they were washed.

  Q65  Chairman: Does that tip over into the other buses because the park and ride, as you specifically told us, is aimed at your middle-class customers to get them out of their cars. It is only out in the rural areas they have the broken down ones that they cannot get in.

  Mr Woolley: I do not think we ever told you that, Chairman.

  Q66  Chairman: I did not think you said that, Mr Woolley. I paraphrase, as they say.

  Mr Woolley: I was going on to say that the example we set to the bus companies and because we were licensing that service, they realised that we were specifying something they should be doing as well because the growth in park and ride could be replicated on the staged carriage services. In the FTR, this new concept vehicle we talked about earlier, we have entered into a quality partnership specifically on that with the bus companies where they volunteered daily washing and cleaning, deep cleaning every fortnight, and a whole range of things to make sure that the quality of the vehicle was maintained, the operator recognising the importance to his business.

  Q67  Chairman: Mr Smith, a similar story?

  Mr Smith: Absolutely and I was just reflecting, having been involved in the business for some 10 years or so, so back then the position was quite variable, shall we say. Today you rarely see a dirty bus which is out on the streets. When you use the buses—and I do use the buses as one of the people in the area—you generally find a good experience there. That is absolutely vital. We get a lot of feedback both on our own supported services but also on the commercial services.

  Q68  Chairman: Do you get passenger complaints about rude drivers and bad driving?

  Mr Smith: Of course we do. That goes to some extent with the territory.

  Q69  Chairman: What sort of level are we talking about?

  Mr Smith: I will quote a specific for you. On our park and ride services, which are carrying about 1.6 million passengers per year, we get about 50 complaints a month. Interestingly, one of the most regular complaints is that "the bus pulled away when I was approaching the bus". Of course, that is a reflection of when does a bus pull away when there is a continual stream of people wanting to get on? The serious side is that there are odd incidents, the fact the bus was being driven jerkily or the like. I think it is important that we are monitoring that and it is again part of having to care for the customer and, rather like Mr Woolley, we have tried to work with the bus companies to say it is really important that we get those messages across.

  Q70  Chairman: Is that normal Mr Hodgkins?

  Mr Hodgkins: I think it is quite representative, Chairman, yes. I think the level of complaint that certainly comes to the attention of the local authority about bus services is remarkably low given the total number of customers there are.

  Q71  Chairman: How many authorities insist on proper formal bus driving training?

  Mr Hodgkins: I cannot answer that question precisely. I think it would be fair to say that those authorities who have invested in public transport as a measure to encourage modal shift have done so with quality standards very much in mind and have invested very heavily with their partners in the operating sector in ensuring that the training standards, cleanliness and so on are part of the overall package that the customer is offered.

  Q72  Chairman: Are we agreeing that nevertheless the ones that we are talking to today may very well be the exceptions?

  Mr Hodgkins: I think they are excellent examples.

  Q73  Chairman: No, no, no, do not trade words with me, Mr Hodgkins, that is what I do! I ask you again: are these people that we are talking about here exceptions?

  Mr Hodgkins: No, I believe that across the country the level of satisfaction with bus services is improving. There is no doubt, having been in the bus industry and local authorities for something like 35 years, that the image of the bus industry has never been wonderful. Certainly there has been a period in the last 20 years when the reputation of bus services and the image of bus services has taken a hit, but I think in general terms the overall level of customer satisfaction is now starting to rise.

  Q74  Chairman: So if we take evidence that wheels come off buses when they are in service and a number of vehicle were in use despite having expired Ministry of Transport certificates, that is not the norm?

  Mr Hodgkins: I do not see that as being the normal standard of service that is delivered across the country as a whole.

  Q75  Chairman: I want to ask you about the Competition Act. I do not know who would like to give me their opinion. Should bus services be exempted from the Competition Act?

  Mr Hodgkins: May I kick off, Chairman, with a comment in general terms and I am sure that there will be specific examples that others may draw on. As a local transport authority, we are required to produce a bus strategy which is, in effect, our statement of intent as to how we wish to see the public transport service delivered across the local authority's area and how we intend to prioritise our spend in support of that network. In many cases that bus strategy will take the form of an aspiration of what network we would like to see in place. In some cases those services will be provided commercially and in some cases they will not. In areas where the commercial service falls short of our aspiration, we may wish to enter into dialogue with more than one company in order to secure the enhancement that is necessary to meet our desired standard of service. In some respects the Competition Act has proved a barrier to that dialogue. There are examples of where bus routes run by two competing operators have generated additional ridership. I can quote several examples from my local area where that is the case. In many cases however that has been a short-lived experience, especially when profit margins are as tight as they are in many of the rural shire counties that I am familiar with. One of the greatest burdens that the customer sees, and they are being given the answer that it is an impact of the Competition Act, is that where there is more than one operator of commercial services they cannot use their tickets on the other operator's bus, and even where quality standards are of an even level and frequency of service is of an even level, that one factor alone can be a deterrent to passengers.

  Q76  Chairman: Are you saying to us, Mr Hodgkins, that the local authorities could in effect broker a better service if they were able to do so between bus operators?

  Mr Hodgkins: It would be fair to say that in setting out their objectives in delivering public transport networks, the local authorities by and large are trying to deliver a level of service that is in the public interest. It is very interesting to note that the view of the Office of Fair Trading is currently that the local authority is not entrusted with representing the public interest in that it has not got the power to go out and negotiate between operators in the way that you suggest. In that sense, yes, there is a disparity in view over the effectiveness of the Competition Act.

  Chairman: Gentlemen, you have all been very instructive and helpful. Thank you very much indeed, I am very grateful to you.





 
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