Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140-157)
MR ROY
WICKS, MR
GEOFF INSKIP,
MR DOUGLAS
FERGUSON, MR
ROBERT SMITH,
MR MIKE
PARKER AND
MR MARK
DOWD
21 JUNE 2006
Q140 Chairman: Supposing that data
was provided from Traffic Commissioners, would that be a good
idea?
Mr Wicks: That would help, yes.
Q141 Chairman: Can I ask you, Mr
Dowd, why is the network in St Helens changing? Is that a good
thing if it is not fit for the purpose that it is designed for?
Mr Dowd: I think one of the problems
that we have got is that the bus operators on a commercial basis
can basically do what they wish. I think it has been mentioned
today that what they will not do is run buses where they are going
to lose money so they will look at St Helens as a whole and basically
make a decision that they will do A, B and C. They will then decide
that is the way it is going to be. They will send that to the
Traffic Commissioner, they give the 56 days' notice and obviously
that puts Merseytravel in a position where we have to print timetables,
we do not have the time to do it and obviously there are people
who stand at the bus stop for the bus which will not turn up because
it has been taken off; that is the problem.
Q142 Chairman: What percentage of
the various services are not provided by the big five operators,
do you know?
Mr Dowd: In Merseyside we provide
20% of the services and that is subsidised.
Mr Parker: We fund 10% of the
bus services in Tyne & Wear.
Mr Smith: In Centro in the West
Midlands it is around about 9%.
Mr Ferguson: In the west of Scotland
around 15% are subsidised services.
Mr Inskip: 15%.
Mr Wicks: We are 10% but, of course,
most of those contracts are won by the big five companies again,
so they end up operating 90% of the services.
Q143 Chairman: Gentlemen, you have
been very helpful but I would like to ask you one other thing.
What percentage of buses in the areas that you control are accessible
by disabled people?
Mr Wicks: In South Yorkshire it
is about 44%.
Mr Inskip: 42%.
Mr Ferguson: I do not have that
figure but I could provide it.
Q144 Chairman: Let me know when you
do my note, thank you.
Mr Smith: The same.
Mr Parker: 60%.
Mr Dowd: We have got 37 bus companies,
I will provide you with the figures.
Q145 Chairman: Are all your buses
generally safe?
Mr Dowd: Yes.
Mr Wicks: Yes.
Q146 Chairman: And properly maintained?
Mr Dowd: Yes.
Q147 Graham Stringer: You say that
buses are safe but is there not evidence in Greater Manchester,
West Midlands and South Yorkshire that when the Traffic Commissioner
has intervened many of the buses have had to be withdrawn immediately,
so clearly they are not all safe, are they?
Mr Smith: If I could answer that.
In the West Midlands I would say the majority of buses are safe.
There have been one or two quite significant incidents, however,
of smaller operators who have been called before the Traffic Commissioner
and action has been taken against them for the poor maintenance
of vehicles.
Q148 Chairman: Buses where the wheels
fall off cannot be entirely safe.
Mr Smith: Absolutely, that is
why we have used the word "generally". There have been
instances and these are treated very seriously indeed by the Traffic
Commissioner who is responsible and he has taken the appropriate
enforcement action.
Q149 Chairman: You have not persuaded
the Permanent Secretary at the Department for Transport that age
has anything to do with quality, have you?
Mr Smith: That is correct. In
our view, age is a very key issue in quality and there are vehicles
running around on Britain's second cities' roads which are over
20 years old which in our view is just not acceptable.
Q150 Chairman: Sir David said that
the Routemasters in London were 30 to 40 years old in London but
they were fairly reliable at that age. Is that a view that you
hold?
Mr Smith: I think Routemasters
are particularly wonderful buses, Chairman, but they are not appropriate
for modern use. They are used now by TfL for heritage purposes.
Chairman: I think we can guess
how often Sir David uses the bus!
Q151 Mr Clelland: Given everything
that has been said, how profitable are the bus companies compared
with other businesses in your area?
Mr Dowd: Rich.
Mr Parker: Extremely. The return
in Tyne & Wear in 2004 was over 10% in the three big bus companies.
Mr Smith: We have been told in
Birmingham by a Director of Travel West Midlands that their return
is around about 19%.
Q152 Chairman: So they are not doing
badly. Anybody else?
Mr Inskip: Similarly, in Greater
Manchester I would say that typically bus operators where they
run railways are making 4-5%, on coach operations now 8% and certainly
on bus operations I think in excess of 25% on some routes.
Q153 Chairman: Mr Stagecoach still
earns the bulk of his profit, does he not, from buses?
Mr Inskip: Yes.
Q154 Chairman: Do you have formal
training standards for bus drivers in your areas that you insist
on from the companies?
Mr Wicks: We have done two things.
One is on the voluntary quality partnerships and on the statutory
quality partnerships we have asked for driver training up to NVQ
standards.
Q155 Chairman: Is it accepted?
Mr Wicks: Yes. We have also opened
a transport academy where we provide free training for drivers
because it was such an issue in the consultation we did a year
ago that we now provide customer care training and other training.
Stagecoach have been very good at supporting that and First are
supporting it. It does not cost them anything, we get funding
from the LSC and all they have to do is provide the time.
Q156 Mr Martlew: Surely they should
be paying towards this because it is to their benefit.
Mr Wicks: There are lots of things
that PTEs provide that are to the benefit of the bus companies
that only seem to happen if we provide them.
Q157 Chairman: Do you make that case
to the Department for Transport? They seem to be slightly remiss,
they are not promoting the bus in the way we think they should
and apparently they are saying that some of these problems arise
that are not your responsibility but you make the case that you
do have a responsibility.
Mr Wicks: I think we do. One point
I would like to make, which brings a lot of these points together,
is one of these issues is about the attractiveness of buses, which
goes back to one of the first questions. Very few of the bus companies,
even the major bus companies, see bus service provision as a customer
service and actually treat their passengers as customers, they
still see them as operational products. It is about getting buses
out in those sorts of ways and their recognition that the driver
is the sole point of contact between that company and the passenger
has been very under-invested. I think that is why we have stepped
in and said, "Look, you should be doing this but we cannot
wait for you to do this because it is turning passengers away".
Chairman: Gentlemen, you have all been
extraordinarily helpful, thank you very much. You have also been
very patient, I apologise for making you wait. Thank you.
| 
