Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-359)
MR PHILIP
BROWN
28 JUNE 2006
Q340 Chairman: Is that what you meant
by modernising? I was just going to ask you in your own evidence
you talk about modernising. That is what you mean, physically
modernising?
Mr Brown: That is part of the
modernising of it. We need to impose an obligation on operators
to do that, like they are of course obligated to do under the
recent amendment in relation to the flexibly routed bus services.
If a traffic examiner says, "Give me your data," they
are obliged to keep the data themselves but give it to them. I
understand that there may be lots of difficulties in that because
not everybody, apart from the larger operators you have seen here
today, will hold that electronically so that is something that
needs to be worked out. Modernising the whole process would certainly
help Traffic Commissioners in gaining the big picture.
Q341 Clive Efford: One answer from
Stagecoach said that they had never had a request for that data,
the statistics you have just been talking about. Can you comment
on that?
Mr Brown: Well, the easiest way
to request them is when you have a statutory power to request
them. One of the excuses—sorry, reasons I have had given
at a public inquiry by one the large groups here today was, "We
undertake to give you the statistics provided you do not take
any action against us on the statistics which we have provided."
Clive Efford: Can I just push you a bit
further on that.
Chairman: That is a unique attitude.
Q342 Clive Efford: We were definitely
given the impression that if you requested this information, it
was readily available and it would be handed over to you.
Mr Brown: If that was the case,
of course on every bus operator's licence we could suggest that
the conditions of the licence be varied by adding a condition
that every bus operator must provide statistics of their performance
in relation to the local services every three or six months, whatever
it may be. So we can impose that condition by way of a variation,
I think, but I would have to check the legislation to make sure
that the process was legal. That is all I would say.
Q343 Clive Efford: Can I ask you
about the number of stop notices that are issued on buses, whether
postponed ones or immediate ones. We were told that the overall
figure for the industry was around about 70% of buses without
stop notices.
Mr Brown: 70% of inspections of
vehicles are clear of prohibition, yes.
Q344 Clive Efford: That was a correct
figure?
Mr Brown: On average across the
piece that probably is a correct figure in terms of the 30% failure
rate, yes.
Q345 Clive Efford: The bus operating
companies in front of us represent what proportion of the industry?
Mr Brown: I do not know but it
is a fairly large proportion. There is a very small number of
bus operators.
Q346 Clive Efford: Most of their
figures seemed to be in the high 80s or even high 90s and, given
the proportion they are of the industry, I wondered whether that
figure added up when the overall figure for the industry is 70%?
Mr Brown: I think it is right
that one has to be careful just looking at statistics because,
as someone said earlier, some of them can be very minor reasons
for prohibition which do not actually impact on road safety at
all. On the other hand, they may have very serious consequences
and what the Traffic Commissioners take into account is the number
of immediate prohibitions which are marked by VOSA enforcement
officers as significant failures of maintenance.
Q347 Clive Efford: Just going back
on the statistics issue, if you were given the information that
you have requested and been denied, would it make your job easier
in terms of enforcement and maintaining the standards of the contracts?
Mr Brown: The first positive part
of that would be we would have an instant set of statistics which
would be analysed either by the operator or by VOSA officers and
that would tell us what the percentage of compliance across these
operated services as a whole was, so we would know where the problems
lay and we would know what the reasons were for non-compliance,
for not running bus services according to the timetables. That,
of course, has a benefit to the operator who can say, "These
are the problem areas and these are the reasons we have the problems."
One of the bus companies in my area has recently adopted a process
of sending me a weekly list of problems that they have encountered
and the reasons why their buses have not been able to run on time.
That is a good start so I have the information. Much of it is
to do with the information flow and communication because a lot
of the time Traffic Commissioners are acting quite a lot in the
dark or at least in the gloom, and to enable them to make an informed
decision they need the full picture.
Q348 Mr Martlew: Just on that point,
alright, Mr Brown, you get the information but do you believe
that the public should be given that information as well? If,
say, I go to the railway station and I am a bit of an anorak,
I will look at the performance of the trains, and I think it has
an effect of improving the performance of the companies so that
the public know what they are doing.
Mr Brown: I think that is true.
To a certain extent it should be in the public domain. Once it
is released to the Traffic Commissioners it should be in the public
domain. It is not sub judice, it is not anything really,
it is effective evidence. One of the difficulties that the bus
companies did explain was of course they are reliant on a road
network rather than a rail network. There may be many, many problems
with road networks, and that is another issue that I can come
on to later on, but I see no reason at all why the statistics
should not be published.
Q349 Mrs Ellman: You have just referred
to some problems about road networks. What would you like to do
to resolve those? Is there anything to do with powers?
Mr Brown: I would love to oblige
local authorities to provide bus priority lanes. One of my areas,
as you will know, is in the Western traffic area in Bristol and
there where one effective bus priority measure was introduced
a couple of years ago that has seen passenger growth by 12-15%.
Those are agreed figures between the local authority and the bus
authority. The bus company has suggested more priority lanes,
four or five other priority measures, on what they call the showcase
routes. That is just a measure of what is proposed for the Greater
Bristol area amongst four unitary authorities, and that is part
of a local transport plan. Then, however, you come up against
economics, you come up against politics, and of course you get
nowhere. I have said that recently at a stakeholder group meeting
which involved local authorities, local councillors and the bus
operators and other stakeholders. I said, "If you take the
politics out, if you really want a transport system which enables
buses to run on time, let the buses through. If you do not let
them through you will not get anywhere and you will continue to
lose passengers." It is quite simple really.
Q350 Mrs Ellman: What do you mean
exactly when you say take the politics out? Are you telling us
at the point of commission—
Mr Brown: It is nothing to do
with me. It will not even come to me. If your buses are running
on time no-one is going to complain. I do not have to deal with
the issue at all. I only deal with non-compliant operators.
Q351 Mrs Ellman: You just said that
you would like to have the powers to decide.
Mr Brown: I did not say that.
I said if local authorities were obliged to provide bus priority
lanes, not by me, I am not suggesting that.
Q352 Mrs Ellman: Is that not the
same thing? Do you think you know better than local authorities
what should happen in individual areas?
Mr Brown: I do not think I know
anything better than anybody else. All I can say is I can act
on evidence that if you want passenger growth you want measures
to do that to encourage people back on the buses. You have only
got to look at York, look at Bradford, look at Leeds and other
metropolitan areas where there are proper bus priority measures
in force to see that then you will have good bus patronage.
Q353 Mrs Ellman: But who should be
deciding?
Mr Brown: I do not think that
is a matter for me.
Q354 Chairman: You are not going
to get away with that, Mr Brown, it is a good try.
Mr Smith: I knew you would say
that.
Q355 Chairman: The thing is what
we want to know is are you really saying that, in effect, the
traffic planner, which is what you are actually implying, whether
employed by you or employed by the local authority, should have
the obligation, which was the word that you used, to provide a
bus priority lane because, in effect, that is taking away from
elected councillors. We do not want to go into the pros and cons
of that at the moment but I think we need to know exactly what
it is you are saying. If you are saying Traffic Commissioners
should have the right to insist that local authorities provide
bus priority lanes, someone has to take that decision of where
it is going to be.
Mr Brown: Let me just give you
some examples from cases that I have. For example, you will have
a bus company which will say, "It is traffic congestion,
we cannot get our buses through in this urban area."
Q356 Chairman: They say that about
Crewe, God help us.
Mr Brown: Wherever they say it
about, then you say to the local authority, "What bus priority
measures have you introduced to enable the buses to get through,
some of which may be contracted services so you have said you
have got to run these buses according to this timetable? What
have you done about it?" "Nothing," they said,
"We cannot do anything about congestion." End of story.
Q357 Chairman: We are still asking
you the same question.
Mr Brown: I know you are but I
am just trying to give you a bit of background. Whether it is
central government which says buses are a priority and therefore
we require local authorities—mind you, you would have to
pay local authorities because they will say they have not got
any money, that is another issue, but if you say as a central
government department we require local authorities to ensure bus
priority measures to encourage and obtain better patronage, I
can only give you very small examples that that is what has happened.
That is the historical fact of the matter. I can only leave it
at that.
Q358 Chairman: You are still—
Mr Brown: The Traffic Commissioners
are just regulators. We do not decide policy.
Q359 Chairman: Are you saying, in
effect, that it should be looked at purely as an abstract traffic
congestion problem. If you are, we do not need to argue with you,
this is an argument to be held elsewhere, but is that what you
are saying that that should take priority over what elected members
want for a particular area?
Mr Brown: If that is necessary,
it has to be.
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