Examination of Witnesses (Questions 440-459)
GILLIAN MERRON
AND MR
PHIL WEST
28 JUNE 2006
Q440 Graham Stringer: A final question
if I may: you said that the concessionary schemes had been well
received and indeed they have in many places, but we heard from
Transport 2000, amongst a number of witnesses, that in actual
fact because of the popularity of the concessionary schemes, bus
operators were having to focus their routes on where they were
collecting those people who were using concessionary fares, and
other services were being withdrawn. Do you have any proposals
to deal with that problem? There are negative impacts of concessionary
schemes as well as positive impacts.
Gillian Merron: I know the Committee
does acknowledge the importance of the concessionary fares scheme
and I am sure we would all share in looking forward to its extension
in 2008 as well. I would also say how much I welcome the fact
that authorities have worked together to make sure we can have
cross-border travel and we continue to encourage that. Of course,
the intention is not to reduce schemes. I think as we look towards
2008 we will be looking to introduce legislation about how that
will come in. I think I will turn to Mr West at this point because
I know he would have particular points to raise about the points
that Mr Stringer raises.
Q441 Mr West: We see no evidence
yet of the sort of scenario you describe but we would certainly
welcome that side of it. What our ministers have asked us to do
is to develop the extension of the scheme that is going to happen
in 2008 and to learn from the implementation of the current scheme
in doing that. We have got to look at the uptake which I think
is directly related to what you say. We will be doing that, gathering
evidence and feeding back the evidence before they decide what
the 2008 scheme will look like. If there are problems, they will
want to resolve that in that situation.
Q442 Mrs Ellman: I would just like
to go back for a moment to Sir David's evidence. In addition to
the points Mr Stringer made, when he was asked about the changes
to the regulatory regime, he said that the Department had no intent
"to reform the institutional arrangements". I take it
that would not preclude you deciding to reform them should the
evidence from your review suggest that?
Gillian Merron: I can see Sir
David's evidence excited a lot of interest.
Q443 Chairman: Sir David was doing
his best for you. It may be connected to the fact he knew he was
going to retire. His well-known impish sense of humour may have
overtaken him.
Gillian Merron: What I would say
in response to that, Mrs Ellman, is that—at the risk of
repeating myself—I think the important thing is to say what
we will not be doing, and Alistair Darling, predecessor to Douglas
Alexander, made this clear also, is returning to the regulation
of the 1980s. I think it is important to say that, not because
it is some kind of totem but because it did not produce exactly
what we wanted even then. I would refer you to what I said in
the opening statement, which was if legislation was needed, then
of course we would be looking to do that next year but I would
just emphasise, Mrs Dunwoody, the "if".
Q444 Mrs Ellman: Perhaps we can turn
to another report, the Public Accounts Committee report Delivery
Chain Analysis for Bus Services in England, published in May
of this year. That report criticises the Department for failing
to look at information on issues to do with public transport,
buses in particular, reducing congestion and emissions. Are there
going to be any changes? Will the Department be more active in
looking at the contribution buses do make in those areas?
Gillian Merron: The first thing
to say is that we are still preparing our response to the Public
Accounts Committee and certainly on the issues you raise the Department
does of course take them very seriously but many of them are dealt
with in a local sense. We do have discussions of course with bus
operators about environmental considerations and perhaps I can
ask Mr West to come in here?
Q445 Chairman: Yes, Mr West, why
does the Department not collect data on buses?
Mr West: We do collect data on
buses, we regularly monitor performance in terms of overall customer
satisfaction. There are statistics available on carbon dioxide
and pollutant emissions from buses in the DfT statistics.
Q446 Chairman: There are?
Mr West: Yes.
Q447 Chairman: It rather looked to
the Public Accounts Committee as if you had no information on
emissions.
Mr West: There is information
on emissions, there is also information about accessibility which
we think is important as well; the social inclusion element of
that. We have commissioned some specific research about social
inclusion and the interventions which have been made and of course
we set a series of indicators which local authorities then can
use in terms of accessibility, and by accessibility we are talking
about linking up socially excluded communities to centres of services.
Gillian Merron: If I could, that
is something which came out of the Select Committee's previous
inquiry's report which we took on board.
Q448 Mrs Ellman: We have had a lot
of evidence suggesting that the Department should be more pro-active
in supporting buses. What plans do you have to do that?
Gillian Merron: Our role has to
be to have those discussions with stakeholders about how we can
best do that, as I have already referred to, looking at the existing
provisions and how we can strengthen them. In terms of supporting
bus services, of course we do directly support them in a number
of ways financially—just to quickly run through them, it
is worth reminding ourselves—not only in terms of concessionary
fares, I believe there is support for them, to Transport for London
and also the bus service operators' grant which goes direct of
course to the operators and also through the revenue support grant
as well. So there are a number of ways we already support them.
We already have a framework in place but what we also know is
it is not delivering quite as we would all like, which is why
we are here in this inquiry and why, as I say, myself and the
Secretary of State will be continuing to look at what we can do,
what the framework is we can come up with which will still—and
I do think this is important and I would re-emphasise it—allow
local responses which will best serve local people. Clearly it
is going to be very different in rural areas from urban areas,
in a PTE area from a small urban area, and I want us to take account
of that.
Q449 Mrs Ellman: Are you concerned
about the poor image of buses?
Gillian Merron: I would like to
reflect back to the point I made, which is many of the people
who hold the image do not travel on buses.
Q450 Mrs Ellman: Is that why they
do not travel on buses?
Gillian Merron: It is possible.
Some of the local successes we have seen have been where bus operators
have promoted and marketed themselves very well to the public
as an attractive option. The fact is buses are important, they
are flexible, they are good value for money, they get people to
where they want to go, and particularly groups of people, which
the Committee I know is concerned with, who perhaps otherwise
might be excluded. I would accept, and I think it is an important
part of our considerations, that is part of increasing bus patronage
but how do we make it not only a practically attractive option
but in terms of what people think. For those who travel on buses
in London, their opinion is very positive.
Q451 Mrs Ellman: What do you think
they are doing right in London and wrong everywhere else? Is it
to do with the preferential treatment there is in London or something
else?
Gillian Merron: In terms of using
bus lanes, for example, that is one tool in the box which can
be used locally and certainly we do encourage that from the Department
and people locally should consider that. The other areas as to
why buses are attractive are the safety provision, their frequency,
their reliability, the cost, and where they connect up with. We
have heard some of that in the importance of how we connect people
to the services or places they want to go to.
Q452 Mrs Ellman: Do you think there
are enough success stories of partnership between transport authorities
and bus operators?
Gillian Merron: I think there
are plenty. I think the difficulty is in people drawing comparisons
and that will be part of our work over the next few months. As
I said earlier, I feel people often look to London, which is very
important and I think we can learnt a lot, but the direct comparison
is quite a difficult one. The things we just talked about, the
quality of the bus travelling experience for the member of the
public, is one we can very much look to and we do have some very
good buses in other areas, and Brighton is one I heard about myself.
I do believe there are examples, I feel perhaps that the challenge
will be to draw on the best and to make them applicable to other
areas.
Q453 Mrs Ellman: What about information
on buses and bus services? Is that good enough and is it anything
the Department should be doing?
Gillian Merron: Again, I would
very much consider that to be part of our consideration. What
our constituents complain about is not knowing when the bus is
going to arrive, not knowing if it is going to be reliable, and
that may be why they are opting for other means of transport or
not travelling at all. I would very much agree with your point,
Mrs Ellman, that it is an important factor and I do feel it has
to be part of how we look at what we are providing in terms of
where we want to get to, which is about improving bus services.
Q454 Mrs Ellman: Do you think the
Department should have a stronger role on safety issues, passenger
safety and people feeling more secure in transport, or is that
something which should be entirely left to the local transport
authorities?
Gillian Merron: The Department
definitely does have a view, and I think it is important, or should
have a view. How can I put this? I do think it is important the
Department is clear about the importance of passenger safety because
it is another major factor. What I would say is, that would best
be decided locally. If we go back to London, where people are
very aware of the challenge of terrorism, for example, and whilst
they may be aware of it in other parts of the country that will
not necessarily be the presenting factor in terms of passenger
safety, so it is important to get the right approach locally.
Indeed, I would feel that is something we can be looking at as
we look at part of the process in the future.
Q455 Mrs Ellman: Congestion has been
identified as a major problem. Is there anything you think the
Department rather than local authorities should be doing?
Gillian Merron: I feel we do offer
the opportunity for local provision to be made in terms of tackling
congestion, and encouraging people to use buses is one. I am looking
at, for example, Mrs Dunwoody, Oxford and Cambridge and the way
in which it is nigh on impossible, I think might be the right
expression, to park a car but the alternative provision is there
suggesting in terms of demand management they have achieved it.
I realise they are specific examples but nevertheless what it
teaches me is when you look at it as a total it is not possible
just to say, "We want to increase bus use", we have
to do it as part of a whole and again locally people will be best
placed to decide. Our job is to equip them with the right framework.
Q456 Clive Efford: In evidence, PTEs
have suggested to us they have competition in name only, that
they put lots of services up for tender but get very few bids
in. Does the Government have a view on how we can address that
to get some real competition into these services?
Gillian Merron: There are perhaps
a couple of points I would want to make, Mr Efford, in reply.
One is that competition is also about competition between the
bus and the car, although I am aware that is not the point you
are referring to, but I do feel that is an important part of competition.
I am aware people complain of unfairness in terms of competition
and clearly the OFT has a very strong role to play in that. It
might be helpful to bring Mr West in again.
Q457 Chairman: Mr West, what about
this perpetual circle we go round with the OFT?
Mr West: In terms of the actual
competition for tendered contracts outside London, it is of course
a completely different situation because in London they have rolling
contracts on particular routes, but you can draw parallels and
it is around three bids per contract both inside and outside London;
slightly less outside London. So there is competition. There are
not that many companies, which is another comment which is often
made, but nevertheless there is an equivalence in that respect,
so in one respect the situation is manageable. In terms of the
OFT issue about the number of companies, the OFT is actually quite
a tough body and will investigate, and does investigate, when
complaints are made and people can complain about bus companies
if they feel local competition does not work. As the Minister
has said, what drives companies to perform in areas where there
are only relatively few numbers of competitors is fear of competition
from companies coming in, small operators who are always around
to exert pressure. The need to demonstrate to shareholders they
have the costs under control and maximising revenue is also a
pressure, and the fact that, as I say, the OFT can—
Q458 Chairman: Can I bring you back
to the point Mr Efford was making? There are some areas where
to get two tenders would be pretty remarkable because they do
not get it. I think what Mr Efford asked you is still valid, how
do we deal with those authorities where they are faced with very
real problems in getting people to tender for specific routes?
Mr West: There are two ways of
looking at the question. One is to say, you should have more widespread
use of the competition outside London—
Q459 Clive Efford: Shall we look
at it in the way I was asking the question? The PTEs are telling
us, the Committee, that too frequently there are too few bids
and therefore the demands they are able to place on the people
bidding for those services through the competition to get a quality
service is limited. Is there a view on that from the Government?
If so, what is it and what can they do to assist?
Mr West: The answer I gave is
that there are similarly few competitors in London competitions—
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