Examination of Witnesses (Questions 520-539)
DEREK TWIGG,
MR MARK
LAMBIRTH AND
MR ROGER
JONES
19 JULY 2006
Q520 Graham Stringer: Yes, I was
on the Standing Committee and I made the point.
Derek Twigg: Yes, but they still
can suggest decrements and increments of course and they would
have to find the resources for that and we would still look at
that in terms of how the franchise bid is put together.
Q521 Chairman: But you do have sort
of slightly different criteria for Transport for London and the
rest of the country, do you not, Minister? Transport for London
says it wants to make service specifications, set the fares, and
certainly the Mayor has expressed a very clear view that he wants
to extend his role way beyond the areas where people can vote
for him. Now, are you going to go that far because you seem to
have been given a whole lot of extra powers when no one was looking
or perhaps some people were?
Mr Lambirth: I think as far as
the 2004 Rail White Paper was concerned, the clear policy intent
was to place Transport for London and the passenger transport
executives on a level footing. Neither of them is a co-signatory
to our franchises. Both of them can come along to us with a very
clear right to say that they want to buy more services or buy
fewer services, so they have exactly the same legal standing and
they have the same financial responsibility. In other words, if
they want to buy something extra, in both cases it is down to
them to fund it, so the 2004 Rail White Paper has created a level
playing field. Clearly the PTEs would like to get co-signatory
status back and clearly the Mayor has said what he would like
to have, but as far as the 2004 White Paper and, therefore, the
2005 Act are concerned, the legal position was then placed on
a level footing.
Q522 Chairman: Well, Transport for
London said to us that "the Mayor is seeking further specification
responsibilities over rail, including possibly fare-setting responsibilities,
because there is confusion on where the risks lie and the relationship
of franchise outputs with other service modes", and he also
had very strong views on other things. You are telling us that
that is a wish-list from his point of view and not something the
Department—
Derek Twigg: It is what he is
seeking, yes.
Q523 Chairman: Therefore, the fact
that in recent days he has been given extra powers does not indicate
he is going to be given extra powers over the railway system?
Derek Twigg: I am not aware at
this stage that we have agreed anything of the sort.
Q524 Chairman: Well, we could fill
a whole afternoon on that, but we will not. Do you think Network
Rail ought to be encouraged to get involved in the provision of
rolling stock and train services?
Derek Twigg: No, I do not. I think
what is very important for Network Rail to do is concentrate on
maintaining and renewing the railway structure, focusing on performance
and the delivery of core safety as well. I think that is what
their role is and that is the role they have been constantly improving
on.
Q525 Clive Efford: It has been suggested
to us that, in commissioning rolling stock, not enough attention
is paid to the impact of that on the infrastructure, for instance,
damaging rail. Has the Government got a view on that and is there
something you think we need to tighten up on in the future?
Derek Twigg: I think there is
an issue in terms of how heavy the rolling stock is and its impact
on the rail. If you think of the Pendolinos, and I am sure you
will probably know them as well as me, in terms of the way they
were designed and the impact they had and—
Q526 Chairman: That was just the
loos on them!
Derek Twigg: There was an argument
about whether the loos actually put extra weight on, and I think
Mr Stringer asked a question in the previous session about that.
Q527 Chairman: I think it is definitely
the weight they put on, but we will not go into that!
Derek Twigg: One of the things
we are looking at is obviously the replacement of the HST2, the
high-speed train, and one of areas which is obviously given some
considerable consideration to is the weight of it and how we would
balance that in terms of reducing the weight on the new train
in terms of the safety and environmental impact as well, so that
is something which is clearly very much in our minds and something
we are looking at as part of that process and we are consulting
widely in the industry about that as well.
Mr Lambirth: If I can just add
to that, I chair the group which draws on Network Rail, the train
operating companies, representatives of manufacturers and, above
all, passengers who are involved in jointly trying to frame an
output specification for that new train and a key issue is what
we can do to bring the weight down, and I am pleased to say I
think quite a lot can be done to bring the weight down.
Q528 Chairman: Is not a key issue
how many British jobs you are going to create with this new employment
in rolling stock?
Mr Lambirth: I think the Secretary
of State will issue an invitation to tender which goes widely.
Q529 Graham Stringer: Can I just
follow up that question because it is an interesting answer which
I suspect this Committee is concerned about as well as yourself,
but what I did not understand before you gave that answer was
that you would have an easy handle on specifying the weight of
trains because I would have thought it would have been a matter
between the train operating company and the ROSCO. I would be
grateful if you could expand on just how you envisage this.
Mr Lambirth: It has traditionally,
as you say, been a matter between the train operating company
and the ROSCO. What we have managed to do is build up a very strong
industry consensus that actually you should design some parameters
of the train, like its weight, because Network Rail then needs
to design the infrastructure to go with the weight on a very joined-up-industry
basis. If you have a lighter train, then Network Rail will have
to maintain the infrastructure to a higher standard in order to
improve safety and if you go for a longer train, Network Rail
will have to make adjustments to gauge and platforms, so everyone
welcomes the proposition that we should do this as a joint project
led by the DfT with full industry involvement. That should not
cramp the style at all of the train operating company in terms
of the sort of things that it wishes to do inside the carriage
for passengers.
Q530 Graham Stringer: So effectively
you use your good offices rather than direct control you had?
Mr Lambirth: We are not using
direct control, but, as a matter of fact, there has to be a customer
and the customer who issues the invitation to tender for the design
of the new train will be the Secretary of State.
Q531 Chairman: That is rather interesting.
Are there enough of you, Mr Lambirth, to monitor the performance
of all these franchise-holders?
Mr Lambirth: There are 256 staff
in the Rail Group and perhaps 300 staff dealing with rail across
the whole of the Department. That is significantly lower than
the 530 that the DfT and the SRA sort of had combined before the
merger. I think we have had very little reduction in the number
of staff engaged in specifying and very little reduction in the
number of staff engaged in procuring franchises. What we have
done as a deliberate choice, reflecting the new relationship we
want with train operators, is to reduce more significantly the
number of staff in the area that manage the passenger franchises
and interface with the train operating companies there.
Q532 Chairman: In what way? How do
you do that?
Mr Lambirth: My fellow director
who has four divisional managers, each dealing with groups of
train operating companies, monitoring their financial performance,
monitoring the improvement in reliability they are delivering,
their compliance with contracts and so forth, that is one of the
areas where the new Rail Group is significantly slimmer, we think,
than the old SRA.
Q533 Chairman: Slimmer?
Mr Lambirth: Yes, fewer people.
Q534 Chairman: Cleverer, but nevertheless
sufficient?
Mr Lambirth: Sufficient.
Derek Twigg: And cleverer.
Mr Lambirth: I am not allowed
to say anything!
Q535 Chairman: Have any key decisions
been delayed as a result of the changeover from the Strategic
Rail Authority to you?
Derek Twigg: All the franchises
have gone out on time.
Q536 Chairman: I am asking about
significant decisions. We have been talking about developing the
system and expanding capacity, so we are not just talking about
awarding franchises, are we? Have we missed anything that we ought
to know about and ask you about?
Derek Twigg: Not that I can recall.
If I go back to the HLOS programme and the long-term rail strategy,
then they are obviously developing on time, so no, I cannot recall—
Q537 Chairman: So things like the
domestic services and the procurement of rolling stock for the
Channel Tunnel Rail Link, they have gone ahead?
Derek Twigg: You are talking of
the (?) contract?
Q538 Chairman: Yes.
Derek Twigg: I am not aware of
any delay.
Q539 Chairman: And you are quite
happy that that is the situation?
Derek Twigg: That we are keeping
on track and on time?
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