Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
MR OWEN
WHALLEY, MR
NEIL BULLEN,
MS JANE
MANDLIK, MR
JOHN HERMAN,
MR ANDREW
CUNNINGHAM, MR
MILES BUTLER
AND MR
STEPHEN JOSEPH
19 OCTOBER 2005
Q20 Chairman: So you are relying on the
fact that people will not be there in the area; they will have
conveniently left?
Mr Whalley: We are relying on
the fact that a lot of people are on holiday.
Q21 Chairman: You do not think possibly
having something like that on the doorstep might prove an inducement
to stay home and have a look? I am not imaginative but it just
crosses my mind.
Mr Whalley: Again, Chair, I have
worked just to the north of the Blackwall Tunnel northern portal
for many years and I always look forward—
Q22 Chairman: Oh, it is your fault, is
it?
Mr Whalley: Possibly. I always
look forward to the summer holidays because evidence suggests
that during the summer holidays traffic along the A12 and in the
area generally does reduce significantly and with that in mind
we think there is spare capacity within that summer period to
absorb some of the additional traffic that may be anticipated.
We are aware also that the LDA are having discussions with major
employers to encourage them to allow their staff more flexible
working to volunteer for the Olympics, which again would seek
to reduce the traffic flows within the area over the Olympic period.
Q23 Chairman: Yes, but, with respect,
getting people to move from paid employment to what they could
volunteer for at the Olympics does not physically remove them
from the amount of traffic, does it, or am I missing something?
Mr Whalley: The point I am making,
Chair, is that in terms of commuter traffic that will be reduced
over the summer period.
Q24 Mr Scott: Perhaps I can explore something
you said earlier about Olympic transportation taking precedence
over Crossrail. Whether it takes precedence or not, and I have
some concerns about that, the implications of the work being carried
out (and particularly in north East London) on both Crossrail
and the Olympics, which must coincide at some stage, will have
knock-on effects on the transportation both in and out of London
underground, overground and also on the roads. How are you going
to cope with this during that period?
Mr Whalley: I do not think it
is necessarily a matter for the local authorities to cope with.
Clearly it is a matter for the London Development Agency and (in
the Crossrail instance) Crossrail to liaise and ensure that existing
transport routings and so on are disrupted as little as possible
during that phase. For example, in terms of the extraction of
Crossrail spoil, that will have to fit in with existing mainline
services and ease off at other times from transporting spoil.
Q25 Mr Scott: So you are saying that
that co-ordination will happen as a matter of course the whole
time?
Mr Whalley: What I am saying is
that it must happen.
Q26 Chairman: There is a little gap between
your "must" and his "will".
Mr Whalley: That is something
that we and the Thames Gateway and the London boroughs respectively
will seek to ensure does happen.
Q27 Chairman: Are you going to think
about providing better access for buses to the Olympic site?
Mr Whalley: As part of the Olympic
transport strategy there are proposals to improve access across
a range of modes.
Q28 Mr Leech: Can I come back briefly
to the issue about the modal split? On our visit to Stratford
last week we were given the impression that the park-and-ride
schemes have not been guaranteed apart from the one in Kent. The
actual siting of them was not 100% certain. How can you be certain,
given that the sites are not definite at this stage, that people
will use those sites and that that will be 15% of the traffic?
Mr Joseph: Athens did it by providing
no parking whatsoever. It is very easy to make sure that people
come in and use them if they have nowhere to park if they do come
in by private transport, so it is one that is quite easy to manage
and we think those facilities will be used.
Q29 Mr Leech: The point I am trying to
make is that, depending on where the actual park-and-ride schemes
are, that will result in people deciding whether or not they are
going to do park-and-ride or come by public transport. I am not
quite sure how you can come to the conclusion that 15% are going
to drive to these park-and-ride places because it might not necessarily
be convenient to drive to those park-and-rides for that 15% of
people.
Mr Herman: Whether or not people
use the park-and-ride sites is not quite the point. If I can recite
an anecdote from the Dome, the Dome provided a park-and-ride site
in Newham just north of Stratford, in fact, on the site of the
Olympics. On one day we actually saw two cars in that park-and-ride
site. It just was not used and yet people did not use cars to
go to the Dome for the reason that Stephen has alluded to. What
will happen is that that 80% share will probably go up and more
people will use public transport if the park-and-ride facilities
are not convenient and available. We want them to be there but
even if they are not there they are certainly not going to come
and clutter up the roads in East London because there is nowhere
to park.
Chairman: I think there was a slight
problem with the Dome that was more than having Newham involved,
if you know what I mean.
Q30 Mrs Ellman: Do you think that the
SUSTRANS project (Greenways to Olympics across London) can be
delivered?
Mr Joseph: Clearly the Olympic
site itself has a lot of excellent new cycle pathways that run
through it. We want to capture that advantage and spill those
cycle routes further out all throughout the Gateway and we are
trying to double the modal split with cycling throughout East
London and we see that as a valuable part.
Q31 Mrs Ellman: Does that mean that you
think it can be achieved or not?
Mr Joseph: As I have mentioned,
it is our policy to double the modal split, so we think that is
achievable, yes.
Q32 Mrs Ellman: How important is the
completion of the Thames Gateway Bridge?
Mr Herman: The Thames Gateway
Bridge is not seen as a crucial element of the transport plans
as they currently stand but, having said that, it would provide
a very useful public transport route, particularly coach route,
from Kent into the Games sites. It does seem a wasted opportunity
given that the completion dates are so close not to urge that
the committee should suggest that everything in everybody's power
is done to make sure it is delivered so that it is there for the
Games. The other issue to flag up about the bridge is that north-south
transport is heavily dependent on Blackwall Tunnel. If the bridge
was there there would be a degree of contingency in the event
of problems at Blackwall Tunnel.
Q33 Mrs Ellman: Do the boroughs think
they have enough powers to manage the access of buses in sufficient
numbers to the site?
Mr Herman: We have worked very
hard with TfL over a number of years on the bridge. The bridge
design (the planning consent is currently subject to a public
inquiry) has two segregated, dedicated lanes for public transport
and a fairly sophisticated toll regime to manage traffic levels
on the bridge is being suggested. What is not yet absolutely clear
is the levels of public transport which will use the infrastructure
that is provided there. That is the missing link in the chain
at the moment, we believe.
Q34 Mr Clelland: The Olympics is not
just about 2012, and of course we can talk about the planning
as we get there, but there is also the whole question of pre-Olympic
training and the setting up of training camps which would be in
different parts of the country, so I come back to Dorset County
Council. Mr Butler, I get the impression from your submission
that you feel that there is too much concentration on London to
the neglect of the rest of us. Is that right?
Mr Butler: I suppose it would
be unfair to say there is too much concentration on London because
clearly that is the main event, but I suspect the committee were
a little surprised to get the submission from Dorset County Council
on the London 2012 Olympics.
Q35 Chairman: We are very broad-minded.
We have heard of Dorset.
Mr Butler: I am sure the committee
will not need reminding that sailing—and it is sailing that
is going to be held at Weymouth and Portland—is currently
our most successful Olympic sport and in the history of it Britain
is the most successful nation. Clearly there will be a huge amount
of interest in the sailing at Weymouth, but poor old Weymouth,
much like many coastal resorts all around Britain, suffers the
characteristic that many do, because of their geography, of being
at the end of a cul-de-sac. We therefore have a situation where
we are attempting to hold a premier world event with wholly inadequate
infrastructure. There are a number of key issues that we need
to address over the next few years to ensure that not only are
we ready for the Games but that we are also ready for the trial
events and we are ready to host major pre-Olympic events that
could be held in the period between now and 2012. One of the critical
issues for us is that the main road into the town is wholly inadequate
for purpose currently and, given the pressures that will come
with the Olympics, we are very concerned about effective delivery.
There are issues with the rail connection as well, which in part
is single track and needs major investment in terms of both signalling
and power. Those two issues combined give us a very difficult
corridor down which to funnel both the officials and the competitors
for the Olympics but also the spectators. The main issue, which
is the highway issue, we have already been trying to address.
There is a provisionally accepted scheme, a major scheme in our
LTP, which the Department for Transport have provisionally accepted.
We have submitted a planning application for that but we have
no consent. There are clearly big issues in terms of compulsory
purchase of the land and so on, and any urging that the Olympic
Development Authority or indeed this committee and government
generally can do to assist us in ensuring a smooth passage for
that road, so much the better. The rail issues are also very important
to us because we want to ensure that the modal split is correct
for the Olympics. I notice that you have Network Rail appearing
in front of you at a future date, and I would urge you to press
them about Dorset issues as much as you press them about the London
issues.
Q36 Mr Clelland: Do you think that the
Olympic Development Authority and the London transport plans etc
are paying enough attention to the transport needs in terms of
the needs of the Olympics between now and 2012 outside of London?
Mr Butler: I guess the jury is
out, but to date the evidence is that we are little bit off the
radar and clearly part of the reason for our submitting a memorandum
to this committee was trying to get ourselves on to the radar
as early as possible, and anything this committee can do to help
us in that respect would be gratefully received.
Q37 Mrs Ellman: Why do you think that
areas outside London are being ignored in the way they are?
Mr Butler: I would not say we
are being ignored. Obviously, we put together as part of the overall
Olympic bid a package which demonstrated how we would be able
to deliver successful Olympics events in Weymouth and Portland,
but to date we have not yet seen the evidence that the needs of
our area in particular (and there will be other areas as well)
are being given the same attention as the main events in London.
That is understandable to a degree but we would like attention
shifted enough to ensure that all the Olympic events are successful.
As I say, the interest in sailing in this country is going to
be enormous because probably between now and 2012 the already
enormous haul of medals in that sport are likely to increase,
so I think it will be an extremely popular event.
Q38 Mrs Ellman: What about the role of
Bournemouth International Airport? Do you think that should be
a gateway?
Mr Butler: Yes. At the moment
Heathrow is obviously the gateway airport for the Games, and that
is perfectly understandable, but Bournemouth Airport is extremely
convenient for the Weymouth event and if it could receive some
recognition and designation as part of the transport package for
the Olympics then clearly that would be extremely helpful to the
successful running of the sailing event.
Q39 Mr Leech: I would be interested to
know roughly how many visitors and competitors we are expecting.
Mr Butler: In terms of competitors
and officials it is about 2,000. I think, slightly ridiculously,
we were expected to cater for 5,000 spectators. By my estimation
I think it will be 15,000-plus, possibly 20,000 visitors. It does
not seem credible that only 5,000 people will want to watch this
event.
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