Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-49)
MR BOB
CROW, MR
RAY KNIGHT,
MR STEPHEN
JOSEPH OBE AND
MR DAVE
WORACKER
23 NOVEMBER 2005
Q40 Mr Leech: Do you have any evidence
to give figures of the numbers of people who are not paying the
lowest fare?
Mr Crow: No, we would not have
the evidence of that because we have not got the information about
what tickets people bought. What we can tell you is the people
we represent, who are responsible for issuing tickets, inspecting
the tickets and collecting the tickets, go through it on a daily
basis. You only have to sit on the train in the morning in some
companies and the first thing they say is "Have you got this
ticket? Have you got that saver? Have you got the other saver?
This will not apply." There is a whole range of different
tickets out there. What we are saying is there is no strategy
to it at all. It is about can they sell a ticket at that particular
price. What we are saying is with the previous issue regarding
Northern Rail, there is a direct link because the people who use
GNER and Virgin, a lot of those people use it as a result of using
Northern Rail first of all to pick up the service from GNER and
Virgin and without Northern Rail the same amount of people would
not use the trains. We believe, therefore, that if there is a
high amount of profit being made by one company or a subsidy being
given, that a certain part of that subsidy should go to the smaller
groups to provide a proper service for those people to use, such
as Northern Rail.
Q41 Chairman: I want to bring you very
rapidly to what happened last Christmas. There was chaos last
Christmas when people could not get advance bookings because the
timetable arrangements were not available. Is the process of Network
Rail owning timetable and engineering works to the national database
now functioning satisfactorily?
Mr Crow: This year we believe
it is far better than last year. For instance, there is a massive
bridge going in at Paddington Station which will mean there will
be a closure on the Western region for a number of days over Christmas
and the New Year but we do understand that Network Rail have provided
the information and the passengers do know when people are asking
for tickets over Christmas and the New Year that there are engineering
works. I am not saying it is perfect but to give credit where
it is due—
Q42 Chairman: They are able to get their
tickets, is that what you are saying, with proper information?
Mr Crow: They are able to get
their tickets and also be told that there is a problem regarding
engineering work. To give credit where it is due, there is more
information being given to the travelling public this year than
in previous years.
Q43 Chairman: Should there be sanctions
against Network Rail for not doing it properly?
Mr Crow: I am not saying they
are not doing it properly, Chairman.
Q44 Chairman: They have an obligation
to provide the information. If they do not provide the information
should there not be a sanction?
Mr Crow: Yes, there should be
a sanction. They have an obligation, for instance, to do the engineering
work but if they know in advance they are doing engineering work
then the travelling public should know in advance there is going
to be difficulty with their journey.
Q45 Chairman: You do not suggest that
giving them the suggestion they would have to pay a penalty would
in any way focus their minds?
Mr Crow: Not really because it
is going to come out of the same revenue that the Government give
them anyway.
Q46 Chairman: Gentlemen, both of you
have suggested that the rail companies should regard themselves
as having an obligation well above the responsibility for running
rail services. As you know, companies would like more flexibility,
they would like more control over the way they operate their fares
policy. What would your attitude be if that were, in fact, the
case?
Mr Crow: Number one, we believe
they should have a social look at the people who are travelling
as well. Do you believe the railways are purely a commercial enterprise
or have they got a social sense? We would say that, yes, the railways
are okay for the pinstriped businessman going from Newcastle to
London from seven in the morning until eight at night but also
they have a responsibility for the loved one who has to visit
someone in hospital on a Friday night who has not got public transport.
Q47 Chairman: Mr Joseph?
Mr Joseph: We think that the flexibility
that the companies want needs to be balanced by the wider public
benefits of, for example, the benefit you would get from the Northern
Trains' fares cut we were talking about earlier perhaps reducing
the need to build roads.
Q48 Chairman: It is very clear that ATOC
just think that as long as people are foolish enough to buy their
tickets they should have total freedom to set the fares they want
and the market will bear.
Mr Joseph: We think there is a
case for the Government intervening to ensure that all train companies
have some minimums, as they already do, and agreed at the time
of rail privatisation in relation to some of the rail cards: young
persons and senior citizens and so on. We think there is a case
for the Government extending that principle of common factors
across the rail network. Car-load fares would be one example and
we mentioned national railcard as an example where we think there
would be wider public benefit. We do not believe that it is sensible
to leave this to the train operating companies because, while
it would be in the interests of some, it will not necessarily
be in the interests of all and the Government will have to step
in.
Q49 Chairman: You do not accept the argument
companies put forward that we are taking more and more passengers
and, therefore, there is no difficulty either in our fare structure
or in the services that we provide?
Mr Joseph: We think that although
it is very welcome there are record numbers of people travelling
by train, there are big variations in the system and the way it
is presented, and we could get even more public benefit from a
national fare strategy.
Chairman: Gentlemen, you have been very
helpful. Thank you very much indeed.
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