Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-115)
MR BRIAN
COOKE, MR
JOHN CARTLEDGE,
MR COLIN
FOXALL, MR
ANTHONY SMITH,
MR ALAN
MEREDITH AND
MR STEPHEN
ABBOTT
23 NOVEMBER 2005
Q100 Chairman: Would it put your mind
at rest if I say we will take from you a general indication and
if you want to come back with evidence that would make you almost
unique amongst our witnesses, but I am sure we would welcome it.
Mr Foxall: I think in this world
you pay for what you get. What I have said earlier on (and I am
not trying to avoid your question) is value for money, and if
you want flexibility then you probably are going to have to pay
for it. It is a question of how you deal with Mr Smith's person
turning up at the station needing to make the urgent journey.
That seems to me perhaps to be a question of information in advance
because the chances are that had that journey been able to be
taken slightly earlier or slightly later and had that person known
it, you would not have been confronted with that problem. It is
rare that you have to travel at that second; it is normal that
you have to travel quite quickly, and if you had to travel a little
earlier maybe you could get round it. If you have information
at least you can make decisions. The issue underlying that is
the existence of the walk-on fare. Can we have a walk-on fare
in this system? That is why I made the point. It is a question
of what railways we want because if we design the wrong fares
system we will get a railway that only certain people can use
or which groups are excluded from, and that is not a position
I think we want to be in.
Q101 Chairman: Have you taken any evidence
about difficulties with school parties or group bookings?
Mr Foxall: No, not yet.
Q102 Chairman: None at all?
Mr Foxall: Not yet.
Q103 Chairman: Not yet. Do you think
this is likely to be because some of the rules have only just
been changed?
Mr Foxall: It is because we are
at the preparation stage of the exercise. I anticipate that it
is going to be running in the early part of next year.
Q104 Chairman: You would, however, be
prepared to take evidence, particularly from school parties, who
are finding it virtually impossible to enjoy the benefits of public
visits and indeed I think are a classic example of the attitude
of railways towards their future customers?
Mr Foxall: We are happy to take
your suggestion.
Q105 Chairman: Thank you very much. Mr
Meredith, and then, Mr Cartledge, I promise I will come back to
you.
Mr Meredith: You were talking
about walk on fares and premiums, et cetera. Could I say that
whilst supporting what is said about further research, that in
fact there clearly is a demand for walk-on fares as well and people
are prepared to pay for them. Perhaps what is missing is this
clarity or transparency in terms of people knowing what is available.
Perhaps one good thing that train operators are doing at the moment
is a move to giving options so you can buy one ticket one way
which is a restricted ticket and you can buy an open ticket back,
so the customer is getting greater choice in some of the deals.
I think what we would like to see is that sort of approach being
extended across the network and being much more open. So there
are good things happening.
Q106 Chairman: Do you think that the
information is there? If I just trolled up to a booking office
would I be given the information?
Mr Meredith: My own personal experience
booking a fortnight ago to come here today was that in fact I
was not given the right information. When I, prompted by my colleague
here, asked the right question, I was given an £8 ticket
into London because that was the fixed time and a £40 ticket
going back which was cheaper than the ticket I was issued.
Q107 Chairman: Have you not proved exactly
the case that concerns us? Unless Mr Foxall has access and you
have access to much bigger publicity budgets than I am aware of,
how would I as an ordinary passenger know that, unless of course
I arranged to have Mr Abbott always travelling with me?
Mr Meredith: There are two things,
Madam Chairman. First of all, there is clearly the opportunity
for people like the RPC and ourselves to publicise these things,
but I think the other thing is that the operators are spending
quite a lot of money on technology and really they should be looking
also at systems which do make this information available, not
just to the customers but to their booking staff because—
Q108 Chairman: Oh, I think they would
not want the staff to know how the thing was run! Mr Cartledge?
Mr Cartledge: I was merely going
to share with you the intelligence that my wife is a teacher and
regularly conducts small school parties by train. She achieves
very substantial fare savings by investing in family railcards
because there is no requirement for those travelling on the card
to have any genetic relationship; they merely have to be in certain
age bands. I suspect if that fact were more widely known many
schools would take advantage of it.
Q109 Chairman: Mr Cartledge, may I say
you are the most welcome witness and I trust that your words of
wisdom will be disseminated throughout the entire educational
system of the United Kingdom. Please pay attention out there!
Now then, I think what we do need to know about is the run-up
to Christmas. You will remember last year when we had this frightful
chaos where people were not able to buy advance tickets because
the information was not available. Do you have any evidence at
all, Mr Smith, as to what is happening this year?
Mr Smith: Yes, Madam Chairman,
in response to what happened last year we have been conducting
a series of mini bits of research ringing round checking on the
ability to both reserve a seat and access certain types of tickets.
Q110 Chairman: And?
Mr Smith: And we can report this
year that the situation is massively improved from last year.
The vast majority of train companies released the ability to book
seats nine weeks in advance as per their obligation. There are
one or two where did not which we are pursuing the reason why,
but for the bulk of passengers (and reflected in comments from
passengers to us) the situation is much improved.
Q111 Chairman: You have very specifically
used the word "obligation". It is an obligation, it
is not an add-on. Do you have any thoughts about what happens
to companies and Network Rail if they do not fulfil their obligations?
Mr Smith: In a regulated system
if a particular company does not fulfil its obligations it should
be punished for doing that. The situation we have got allows for
that and it is the Regulator's decision whether or not to do that
and whether or not it is in the public interest to do that.
Q112 Chairman: Why would it not be in
the public interest to get people to fulfil an obligation?
Mr Smith: It is in the public
interest. The threat of it last year appears to have had some
effect and the companies, Network Rail included, appear to a much
greater degree to have fulfilled their obligations.
Mr Cooke: I would agree with Mr
Smith that, by and large, the major long distance companies are
much better this year and are certainly very close to the obligation
they have, if they are not there. We, however, are concerned that
some of the feeder train operators that do not have reservation
systems are not as close. So if, for instance, you wanted to travel
from Dover to Edinburgh you may be able to know that your train
is going to go alright from London King's Cross but you are not
very clear whether you will be able to get to King's Cross in
the first place, even though that is not a reserveable journey,
because there may be engineering works on that line, and we do
not think enough concentration has yet gone into that issue.
Q113 Chairman: That is an important point.
Mr Foxall?
Mr Foxall: Can I add one generalised
comment about the system. It is great that it has improved but
I wonder whether T12 and T9, which is what we should be talking
about—
Q114 Chairman: Could you not just call
it the obligations so at least the general public have a hope
of understanding what we are talking about?
Mr Foxall: Fair enough, quite
right. We should be careful that the obligation to provide both
time-tabling and discounted ticketing ahead does not take our
eye off the ball too much because in reality the number of those
tickets is limited. What I want to do in this piece of research
we are talking about is look at the possibility of having a longer
and more distant discounted system and not settle for being cramped
within this very narrow band. If we can have some more flexibility
we will get a better deal further out for people who wanted to
travel. I think therefore it is great that we have that news but
let's not limit our ambitions
Q115 Chairman: Well, Mr Foxall, I think
we wish you all power to your elbow in getting accurate information
to assist the passengers. I am very grateful to you all, gentlemen.
Next time, surprise yourselves and bring a female!
Mr Cooke: Our Committee has more
females than males, Madam Chairman; we will do our best next time.
Chairman: Thank you very much. Just remember
women take railways, God help them.
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