Examination of Witnesses (Questions 263-279)
DEREK TWIGG
MP AND MR
MARK SMITH
30 NOVEMBER 2005
Q263 Chairman: Minister, would you be
kind enough to identify yourself for the record? I do not know
whether you have anything you would like to say.
Derek Twigg: I am Parliamentary
Under Secretary of State for Transport with responsibility for
the railways. Mark Smith, on my right, is Head of the DfT Rail
Group's Fares, Ticketing & Passenger Benefits Team. He transferred
across from the SRA to us.
Q264 Chairman: Did you have anything
other than that you wanted to say?
Derek Twigg: I think it is important
to set out where we are today in terms of the railways. I believe
we have a very successful railway. We have had one billion passenger
journeys last year for the first time since the early 1960s. It
is the fastest growing railway in Europe. We are spending £87
million a week. We have seen the biggest ever investment in rolling
stock. I think we have got an industry in growth terms that we
have not seen for many years. I think it is important to put on
the record that clearly we manage the franchising contracts for
them to make sure the targets are delivered within those and,
of course, we want the train operating companies to use their
commercial expertise and add value for the taxpayers and passengers.
Clearly we regulate a number of fares and it is very important
that we continue with the integrated national network.
Q265 Chairman: Thank you. I think
we shall have a number of questions to ask you because the train
operating companies are quite clear who is responsible for most
of their problems and it seems to be you. Could you tell us the
Department's policy on rail fares? What is it based on?
Derek Twigg: We regulate a number
of fares through the fares basket. We leave it to the train operating
companies to determine those that are not regulated. I believe,
based on the number of people using the rail system, that clearly
the low fares offered are attractive in many instances. It is
also a balance between the amount of subsidy that we raise and
pay towards the railways and the fares that are raised as well.
Q266 Chairman: What is the broad
objective in that policy?
Derek Twigg: Clearly we want to
grow the railways.
Q267 Chairman: You have just been
telling us how well you are doing that.
Derek Twigg: We want to make it
attractive for people to use it. There is also a balance to be
struck in terms of how much the taxpayer should put in and how
much the fare payer should put in.
Q268 Chairman: Do you have any element
in that which considers the environmental benefits of getting
people off the roads and into trains?
Derek Twigg: We have a policy
of integrated transport and clearly by making the railways more
attractive we can take more people off the roads. It is important
that, where we can, we integrate that with other forms of transport,
buses, taxis, cycles, etcetera. I recently opened a Park and Ride
scheme in Birmingham and other ones have developed around the
country. We are making more railway stations much more accessible
in terms of cycling.
Q269 Chairman: How does your fares
policy fit into that?
Derek Twigg: In what respect?
Q270 Chairman: Presumably you use
your particular policies and your targets to encourage travellers,
but how do you see the transport situation generally affecting
both the environment and the quality of air and the sustainability
of transport?
Derek Twigg: It is very important
in terms of the balance between the subsidy that we put in and
the taxpayers' money and what fare payers should pay.
Q271 Chairman: So really it is the
cost of the modal shift that is the ultimate deciding factor.
You want to do it, but if it costs too much you will consider
that is not really where you want to go.
Derek Twigg: Clearly we have invested
a significant amount of resource into the railways. £87 million
a week goes into the railways. We need to encourage the train
operating companies as well in terms of their investment. They
provide many attractive options in terms of ticketing and fares
for passengers in order to attract more people onto the railways.
Q272 Chairman: You certainly offer
lots and lots of alternatives. Whether they are attractive or
not is another thing. Frankly, just what is most important to
the Government really? Are you intent on driving down public subsidy
to the railways or do you really want a system which is run as
a public service and is affordable by everybody?
Derek Twigg: Clearly we want a
service that is affordable in terms of choice and in terms of
transport. If we can reduce subsidy then we can spend and invest
more money on the railways. It is an expensive business, but clearly
where the opportunity arises, we want to make that balance better
and ensure we get more funding into the railways. Clearly it has
got to be affordable. There is not an unlimited amount we can
put in. Clearly the success we have seen in the railways in recent
years and the benefits we have seen for passengers are there for
all to see.
Q273 Mr Goodwill: Some of my train
operators in the north of England complain that they cannot offer
more services and more competitive prices because of the amount
of freight that is running on the rails, which not only means
a lot of slow moving trains on the network but it also increases
the amount of maintenance required and the amount of downtime
for repairs. Do you not think your wish to have more freight on
the rail network is at odds with the wish to have more passengers
travelling?
Derek Twigg: This is an interesting
point. Yes, we have a successful railway both in passenger number
terms and in terms of the increase in freight that is using the
railway and we want to see that continue to grow. Clearly there
are also issues around timetabling which is very important in
terms of train paths and in terms of avoiding delays. We believe
that we can develop the railway both in terms of passenger services
and an increase in freight. You may recall the statement made
by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State before the
summer recess in terms of our future view on rail freight.
Q274 Mr Clelland: Are you satisfied
that the railway system has the capacity to make any appreciable
difference to moving people from car to rail in terms of relieving
congestion?
Derek Twigg: If you look at the
route that I use and the Chairman uses in terms of the west coast,
there clearly has been a significant change in the service and
the attractiveness of that service in terms of getting a greater
number of people onto the railway, including many business people.
I believe there is the capacity needed in many parts of the system
and by improving and investing in the railway then of course we
can see more people using it. On the other hand, I accept there
are various capacity constraints around the network and clearly
there will be challenges for us in the future. The high level
output specification which we will be discussing and bringing
forward in the next year or two, as to what the Secretary of State
would want from the railway, is something we are going to have
to consider. There are many issues around capacity in terms of
longer platforms or longer trains or better utilisation of the
current routes, better timetabling, etcetera. There are many,
many things you can do.
Q275 Mr Clelland: All those potential
improvements sound great. In the north-east of England for instance,
where we do have a lot of road congestion problems which we are
struggling with at the moment, we are threatened with closures
and cutbacks in rail services. How is that going to help the modal
shift we are looking for?
Derek Twigg: On railways, in terms
of capacity, there is always a balance to be struck. There is
always this issue around fast trains and slower trains and local
services. What we need to do, in terms of how we plan and think
ahead on the railways, is to think about how we can get the best
capacity for the most number of passengers. There is always a
conflict in this. When we are talking about the amount of money
we are putting into the railways and that size of investment then
clearly we need to make sure that is well targeted and able to
meet the capacity demands.
Chairman: I am sorry; I have to adjourn
the Committee.
The Committee suspended from 4.01pm to 4.09pm
for a division in the House
Q276 Mr Clelland: The Secretary of
State made a recent visit to Tyneside to talk about the use of
the Transport Innovation Fund and ways of relieving congestion
and we are always keen to co-operate and do something about that,
but it does not help when the Highways Agency are not being particularly
co-operative and when we are also facing cutbacks in rail services
from Carlisle to Newcastle and elsewhere in the region. If the
Department is serious about encouraging people to get out of their
cars and get onto the trains then that is not going to help, is
it?
Derek Twigg: As I tried to make
clear earlier, we have obviously a fast growing railway, there
is a great deal of investment going into it and a rising number
of passengers. It is about a balance in terms of capacity, freight,
passengers and fast services against slower services. It is about
working with the large amounts of resource we are putting into
the railway to get the biggest impact where the greatest demand
is. There are always tensions there in terms of the decisions
you make and it is very important to be aware of that in terms
of planning and the decisions that can be taken. Clearly there
are always many demands on the rail system and there are demands
in your region which you have been pursuing. We have to strike
a balance between the availability of resources and where we direct
that to and the demand.
Q277 Mr Clelland: The Secretary of
State is asking the local councillors and the local transport
authorities to be innovative and find new ways of relieving congestion.
Should the Department not be a bit more innovative and look at
ways of keeping these rail lines rather than cutting them?
Derek Twigg: We do consult on
these things. We work with the PTAs and local councils and clearly
if they have ideas for investment in the railways and a business
case can be delivered then we will look at it.
Q278 Chairman: The Transport Ten
Year Plan said that you intended to increase rail use from 2000
levels by 50% by 2010. Mr Clelland is saying to you, if that is
the case, because you certainly have given the investment, what
about the capacity?
Derek Twigg: There are going to
be a number of challenges for us on capacity.
Q279 Chairman: So you have not dropped
the target, you still intend to hit that 50% level by 2010, do
you?
Derek Twigg: We still intend to
grow the capacity of the railways.
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