Examination of Witness (Questions 1-19)
SIR ROD
EDDINGTON
30 NOVEMBER 2005
Q1 Chairman: Good afternoon
to you kind sir. It is always a delight to see your cheerful face.
Can I ask you to identify yourself for the record?
Sir Rod Eddington:
Thank you, Chairman. I am Rod Eddington from the Department for
Transport at the moment.
Q2 Chairman: Sir Rod,
do you have something you want to say to us before we start?
Sir Rod Eddington: Perhaps just
a few brief comments, Chairman, and then I will turn to the important
part of the session which is the questions. I have been in this
role now for just under two months and I have spent that time
trying to gather as much evidence as I can on this key issue of
the links between transport, transport infrastructure and the
economy. I recognise that when Government take decisions around
transport and transport infrastructure they do so with a mind
to other things as well, environmental issues and social inclusion
issues. We are looking at transport through an economic lens.
I am trying to make this process as evidence based as possible,
so through the last two months I have met with 50 key stakeholders
across a whole range of different modes and we have spent quite
a bit of time in the regions. That journey is not finished yet.
We are probably about two-thirds of the way through our regional
visits. We were in Newcastle and Teesside yesterday for instance.
I am working with a small team made up of some people from Transport
and some from the Treasury. We have also looked to gain as much
as we can from the work that was done before. One of the key groups
who are working with us is a group that we call the academic friends
which comprises some of the key transport economists and geographic
economists in the country. Through them we are trying to draw
on the information that is out there so that we can include it
in the work that we do.
Q3 Chairman: Thank you
for that. I am rather taken with a group called "The friends
of Sir Rod"! Could you give us a little bit more information
about the remit, just the detail of the remit and whether you
were consulted about it and what you finished up with?
Sir Rod Eddington: The remit is
to look at transport infrastructure through an economic lens and
to look at transport and transport infrastructure from an economic,
economic productivity, economic stability and economic growth
viewpoint. That was the remit I was given and I was happy to accept
it having spent most of my life in transport in one form or another
and recognising that transport infrastructure is essential to
the way in which our transport system is run. I was asked to put
my thoughts forward by the middle of 2006.
Q4 Chairman: How did this
originate?
Sir Rod Eddington: I expect because
the Secretary of State for Transport in particular had heard me
say on a number of occasions that I felt that unless we took a
long hard look at transport infrastructure in this country and
understood its importance to both the economy and to people's
way of life we were in danger of allowing that critical infrastructure
to run down. Having heard me say that on a number of occasions,
he asked me what I thought we should do about it and as I was
contemplating an answer he said, "Not now. I would like you
to spend some serious time doing this and come back in the middle
of next year." It was on that basis that I think I was asked.
Q5 Chairman: Why do you
think it is important that you should do this and not civil servants?
Sir Rod Eddington: I am working
with a small team of civil servants, but for me the key piece
of this work is to work with as many of the key stakeholders as
possible. As to why I was asked, I think you would have to ask
them, not me, but I have been very keen to try and make this remit
as broad as possible in the context of talking to as many key
stakeholders as possible.
Q6 Chairman: Who are you
going to report to?
Sir Rod Eddington: I will submit
my report to the Secretary of State for Transport and the Chancellor.
I will submit my thoughts in the middle of 2006.
Q7 Chairman: So both of
them at the same time.
Sir Rod Eddington: Yes.
Q8 Chairman: Can you tell
us how your work is connected with the Government's short and
medium term transport plans?
Sir Rod Eddington: I have been
asked to look at transport policy and in that sense it has no
connection to decisions that are being made today, tomorrow or
the day after. The specific brief was to look at transport policy
in 2015 and beyond.
Q9 Chairman: You must
have to get to 2015 from somewhere, do you not?
Sir Rod Eddington: I agree entirely.
If I work to my remit, it will be for the Government to decide
whether or not what we find has any relevance earlier to that
timescale. There are some real challenges today, tomorrow and
yesterday and clearly they need to be addressed.
Q10 Chairman: It is a
very wide-ranging brief. Do you think you can do it in nine months
even though you are Australian? Forgive me!
Sir Rod Eddington: It is a fair
question. I have asked myself that same question. I am confident
that we can do a serious and significant piece of work in that
time. Will we get to the detail of all the issues that will be
raised? No, we will not because many of these issues are substantial
issues that will require careful thought. The implications are
likely to involve things that only governments at the end of the
day can decide. I think it is an opportunity for me to put my
thoughts forward in the hope that they might find some resonance.
Q11 Chairman: The Chancellor
did say that you would look at the "priorities". That
is rather specific, is it not?
Sir Rod Eddington: Indeed it is.
Q12 Chairman: You do not
think that is a code for cutting back the amount of money that
is spent on transport?
Sir Rod Eddington: I hope not
because I think one of the challenges we have is that if we are
going to make the right transport decisions then we need to think
quite carefully about what the investment requirements are and
where those funds come from.
Q13 Chairman: At one point
Lord Birt was supposed to be involved in blue sky thinking in
transport. Do you have access to what he did? Are you building
on what he did? Are you ignoring what he did?
Sir Rod Eddington: I have not
had access to his conclusions.
Q14 Chairman: He did come
to some conclusions, did he? This Committee was unable to discover
them. You can assure me that he came to some conclusions, can
you?
Sir Rod Eddington: I have had
no more luck than you in that regard. However, I have had access
to the data he produced. I have looked hard at all the evidence
that we can find that relates to this issue. I think some of the
work he did on demand management was interesting and some of the
European comparisons he did were interesting. I have seen the
data but I have not seen the conclusions.
Q15 Mr Clelland: You said
you had recently visited the north-east of England. Did you have
the opportunity when you were there to discuss the effects of
congestion on the A1 and the A19 on economic development in the
area?
Sir Rod Eddington: Yes. We were
there yesterday. We went down to Teesside as well, we spent most
of the day in the North East. I think the issue of congestion
generally, although in this instance it is road congestion, is
something that is raised wherever we go and it very quickly comes
to a number of issues, ie the issue of what role does demand management
have in resolving congestion problems, what are the alternatives
and what are the causes of congestion. One of the things I am
very keen that we do is to start by understanding what the journeys
are, whether they are intercity journeys, whether they are people
coming to work in the morning, whether they are freight journeys
and if they are freight journeys, where are they coming from and
to, and then from that to reflect on what the economic issues
are. Road congestion is a problem around the country. Mind you,
if you talk to people on the rail network, they will talk about
the competition for space on the railway as well.
Q16 Mr Clelland: I was
more interested in the current effects of congestion in that area
on economic development. Are you aware that the Highways Agency
has effectively blocked economic development around the A1 and
the A19 because they say it is too congested?
Sir Rod Eddington: That issue
was raised with us. I know these issues are important and they
are significant locally and clearly they are issues that need
to be addressed. As the Chairman suggested, we cannot wait until
2015 to address some of the challenges we face. Nevertheless,
my brief is very clear, which is to step back and take a look
at the bigger issues—and that is why the issue of congestion
is important to us, because it clearly is a significant issue—and
not to get enmeshed in the day-to-day challenges.
Q17 Mr Clelland: That
is fair enough, but, as a general principle, if the Highways Agency
were to adopt that policy across the country we would find that
economic development in huge swathes of the country where we are
trying to develop new businesses would be effectively blocked.
Is that reasonable? Is it not economic development that is going
to pay for the new infrastructure anyway?
Sir Rod Eddington: I have not
spoken yet to the senior leadership of the Highways Agency, I
have to do that in the next week and I have an appointment in
my diary. It is one of the issues that I will raise.
Q18 Clive Efford: You
are quoted in the Transport Times article as saying that
those countries that have got transport right are those with transport
systems that are integrated. Which countries did you have in mind
when you said that?
Sir Rod Eddington: I have spent
much of my life in Hong Kong and anyone who goes to the new airport
at Hong Kong would look at the rail link to the downtown and the
rail infrastructure that goes with that airport, would look at
the underground system in Hong Kong—the same is true in
Singapore, incidentally—and recognise that there is a system
where transport is thought about as an entity rather than through
modal links. There are other examples, but they are the two that
are the best and are very much in my mind.
Q19 Clive Efford: Do you
think that with such a fragmented system in terms of ownership
in the UK it is possible to get it right in the same way as those
countries?
Sir Rod Eddington: The question
of ownership and funding is a very important one in this debate.
As I say, remember I am only two months into this journey and
it is a nine month journey. I am looking in the first instance
at the link between those journeys and the economy. I am very
mindful that there are other issues that are important in this
context: environmental issues and social inclusion issues but
my focus is very much the economy. I am yet to look at the issue
of what ownership structure delivers the best outcomes. Going
back to my Hong Kong days, there is in the broad a role for both
private and public ownership in transport and at the end of the
day it is for the Government to decide where that balance is to
be struck. Most of my time has been spent working for private
companies, airlines, that exist in an environment where some elements
of the infrastructure are government owned and some elements are
privately owned. As long as one is clear about what the key governance
issues are, it is possible to live and operate in a world where
both the private and the public sector are involved.
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