Examination of Witness (Questions 20-39)
SIR ROD
EDDINGTON
30 NOVEMBER 2005
Q20 Clive Efford: You
say that some of the major strategic decisions have to be taken
by the Government—
Sir Rod Eddington: Agreed.
Q21 Clive Efford:—
but in some areas of transport, the private sector is the people
who make the decisions. Airports and ports are examples of that.
Is that not a problem in terms of planning and developing an integrated
transport infrastructure?
Sir Rod Eddington: If you turn
to airports specifically and airlines, and the way in which they
work together, I have not found that a problem. Again, government
is not without some influence in this matter. At the end of the
day, for instance, airport charges are regulated by the Civil
Aviation Authority and government has a real role to play in aviation
in areas like safety and security. It is about identifying the
areas where government naturally should take a leadership role
and the areas where the private sector could meaningfully take
a leadership role. If you look at the infrastructure demands particularly
in any country and the question of can they all be met by government
funds, it is difficult to believe the answer to that question
is yes, simply because there are so many different calls on government
funds: education, health and the like. It is a question of government
deciding where it intends to strike the balance.
Q22 Clive Efford: I accept
that, but if we take some examples, like the United States for
instance, I understand none of their airports are private.
Sir Rod Eddington: Most of their
airports are owned by the local authority, and that is true in
our country in some cases as well. For instance, Manchester Airport
is owned by the local boroughs that are around Manchester. That
is perfectly workable in my experience. We were at Manchester
Airport earlier, we have been to Birmingham Airport and we were
at Tees Airport yesterday, and that is owned by the Peel Group,
it is privately owned. It is not necessarily true that one is
always right and one is always wrong, my point is there is a place
for both private and public capital and funding in these schemes
and it is for government to decide where the balance is to be
struck.
Q23 Clive Efford: You
have also said that planning procedures are a problem. How do
you think we can improve the planning process?
Sir Rod Eddington: This goes back
to the earlier question. Wherever we go, the issue of demand management
and is there a role for road pricing in our road transport is
raised. The other issue that is always raised is the planning
regime. The feedback I get, which is pretty crisp on this, is
that the current planning regime is too complicated, too long,
too expensive, contains too much uncertainty and that it hinders
the running of our transport nodes, it hinders intelligent upgrading
of those facilities and the building of new facilities, where
appropriate, and we need to do much better.
Q24 Clive Efford: Are
the ODPM represented in your review? Are they commenting on the
issues around planning?
Sir Rod Eddington: As I say, I
am still very much in the data gathering mode. Clearly, given
my brief, I am particularly interested in the planning process
as it relates to major transport infrastructure projects, and
that is what I have been talking about as I go round the country.
My findings will reflect the sorts of things I am hearing. Clearly,
planning is a matter for the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister,
as you rightly say, but, given that my brief is to look at transport
infrastructure, and given that planning is an issue that is raised
by all the stakeholders, I think we have to take it very seriously.
Q25 Mr Scott: Can I just
ask on that very subject, are you suggesting that planning issues
should have no local input and should be decided nationally, and
local interests should not be taken into account?
Sir Rod Eddington: Not at all.
I think the question of how we decide the right balance of local
versus national input is an important part of the process, and
I think it is very important that the planning process is thorough,
but there are plenty of examples in the last decade, Dibden Bay
is probably the most recent one, where the planning process took
several years, costs tens of millions of pounds and the answer
was no. The key stakeholders in those circumstances say, "Well,
we accept that sometimes the answer will be no, but it should
not take four years and cost us £45 million to get a no".
I think the planning process by its nature must be thorough and
must involve local as well as national considerations. This is
not a plea for reduction in the thoroughness of the planning process,
I just think it is overly complicated, too long and too expensive.
I think the uncertainty issue is important, it is important at
both the local level and the national level.
Q26 Mr Scott: But you
would not want to see local authorities taken out of this loop?
Sir Rod Eddington: Not at all.
Q27 Mr Scott: Or, indeed,
if they think something is inappropriate for it to be overruled
nationally?
Sir Rod Eddington: I think clearly
the local entity has a key role to play in the process.
Q28 Graham Stringer: Possibly
you can help me, Sir Rod. I cannot decide whether you have got
the easiest job that Government has ever given anybody or an impossible
job. Let me put the question like this: you said earlier that
there is a capacity problem, will your report not say that and
say, "We need more runways, more tramways, more railway,
more roads, more deepwater ports", end of story, you can
finish and go home, not in seven months but by Christmas? Will
your report say that or will it be a deeply complicated report
that looks at academic studies that try to decouple road traffic
from the economy? I am not quite sure at what level you will be
operating, perhaps you can help me.
Sir Rod Eddington: It is a good
question. As to whether I have got the easiest or the most difficult
job, perhaps we can discuss that in the middle of 2006.
Q29 Chairman: Doubtless
that can be arranged.
Sir Rod Eddington: I look forward
to it, Chairman. It is clear that we have capacity issues in all
the modes that you have discussed. What is equally clear is that
we cannot build our way out of trouble. If we could, it would
be an expensive solution but it would be one which we could consider.
If we take the issue of roads, what is clear is that in the time
frames that I have been charged to look at, 2015 and beyond, demand
management will be an important part of I hope—I suspect,
I think—the operating regime. Again, I like to keep a foot
on the beach because I still have not been to a number of places.
In fact, I have been very disciplined about the fact that we should
not reach any conclusions until we have given all the key stakeholders
a chance to have their say. The devil is in the detail in something
like demand management on the roads. You know that, I read the
report produced by this Committee in March this year and I went
through the work that was presented to you by some of the leading
figures on these issues here, and Professor Peter Mackie from
Leeds University is on the Academic Friends group that Professor
Sir Nick Stern chairs for us. There is broad agreement, sometimes
reluctantly reached, as I go round the country and talk to the
key stakeholders that demand management is a part of the story:
"How do we make best use of existing infrastructure?"
and that is not just true of roads but of rail, ports and airports
as well, "Where can we build? What should we build? What
is the case? What are the environmental implications?" By
its nature, I think it is a complex tangle of issues. The challenge
for us all is to sort out the things that matter most, the priorities,
as the Chairman has said, and to speak to how we might address
those priorities in a sensible and meaningful way. A piece of
work that is overly complicated is generally of not much use.
Q30 Graham Stringer: You
have a distinguished career in aviation. Certainly in the view
of this Committee, the ownership structure of BAA is a problem
in terms of increasing capacity in the airport system in the South
East and the best use of that capacity in the South East. Would
you in any way feel constrained about recommending the break up
of BAA?
Sir Rod Eddington: At this point
in my journey, Mr Stringer, I would not feel constrained in any
way on any issue, that included, because I am absolutely focused
on what the economic implications are for transport and making
sure that we absolutely understand the links between the economy
and transport and transport infrastructure so that when you take
a decision, and by its nature it is a balanced decision across
a number of issues, you understand the economic implications as
well. If there is a strong economic case for a particular course
of action, I would not resile from that.
Q31 Graham Stringer: At
the very start you said that you were working with civil servants.
When I go round and speak to groups interested in transport, both
commercial groups and greener, more environmentally concerned
groups, they might not agree precisely on the analysis but they
often come to the same conclusion that part of the problem in
transport in this country is the Department for Transport itself.
Will you feel constrained by the use of civil servants who follow
departmental policy? Will you be able to access resources elsewhere?
Sir Rod Eddington: I think the
answer to that is no, I do not feel constrained. If I wish to,
I can access resources elsewhere. My major external resource at
this point in the journey, and a very useful one, has been the
Academic Friends group because it includes people like Professor
Peter Mackie.
Q32 Chairman: They are
not a secret, are they? Could you write and tell us the names
in due course?
Sir Rod Eddington: I asked my
team to put it in the memorandum I sent to you.
Q33 Chairman: It is in
there, sorry.
Sir Rod Eddington: I have given
you the list of names. Professor Nick Crafts, Professor Stephen
Machin and others, it is an excellent group who challenge, push
and probe, who pull information and evidence to us. For instance,
Professor Nick Crafts has done an excellent piece of work on the
history of transport infrastructure and economic development in
this country going back to the middle of the 19th Century and
the importance of the textile industry on the basis that sometimes
we have lessons to learn from the past. We have looked at labour
markets. We have looked at agglomeration. I anticipate using that
group as a significant sounding board. Also, when we go out we
generally have long days and speak to many different groups, key
stakeholders, local and regional authorities, business community
operators, users of transport infrastructure, so our exposure
is very wide and the inputs to this process are varied and many.
Q34 Graham Stringer: A
last question, if I may. This country is almost unique in the
world, certainly in Europe, in having a deregulated bus system.
This Committee has been concerned that is the cause of the drop
in passengers using buses in every region in this country, except
the one region which has a regulated bus system. Will you be looking
at the regulation of buses? It is at a lower level than road capacity
or airport capacity but it is a vital part of the transport infrastructure
of this country.
Sir Rod Eddington: I think that
is right. It is clear that in an integrated transport world, particularly
for commuter populations, and in all our big cities now commuting
is a very big issue, striking the right balance between public
transport and the motorcar is key. In the context of public transport
there are significant parts of the rail network that are already
heavily congested, so what role does light rail and the buses
play in that world? It is a key piece and I do not think you can
examine those issues without ultimately examining what I would
describe as the governance issues that surround them. By the way,
that issue is regularly raised with us as we go round the country.
Q35 Mr Leech: Have you
been given any steer from the Department in terms of looking at
the idea of road pricing, not looking at re-regulation of buses
and not really considering light rail, or have you been given
a blank sheet of paper for you to come back with your ideas rather
than coming up with what the Department wants you to come up with?
Sir Rod Eddington: I have been
given a blank sheet of paper. In fact, there has been no attempt
to influence me on any of those issues; in fact, on any issue.
Q36 Mr Leech: So no parameters
have been set at all?
Sir Rod Eddington: No.
Q37 Mr Leech: In terms
of concentrating on the economic regeneration, do you feel that
concentrating on that as opposed to maybe social and environmental
benefits of transport might tie your hands at all?
Sir Rod Eddington: No, I think
it is a key issue. We were in Birmingham and we spent some time
in the Black Country with the entities there that are trying to
regenerate, and we were in Newcastle earlier talking about some
of the issues there and some of the areas that are challenging
for them. The issue of economic regeneration is a critical part
of a stronger economy. One of the issues that are always raised
in those conversations is the role that transport has to play.
There are other issues raised as well: skills, access to jobs,
and in particular the ability of people who are in deprived areas
to get to work where it is available is an issue which is regularly
raised. As I say, when we go to places like the Black Country
specifically they will spell out the realities, the unemployment
rates and the challenges that include the challenges of transport.
Q38 Mr Goodwill: My colleague
from Milton Keynes often repeats the old spelling rule "i
before e", infrastructure before expansion. All too often
in this country it seems that the infrastructure is playing catch-up
with the planning process. Do you intend to look at countries
like Spain where European Structural Funding has put in infrastructure,
and how successful that has been in being followed up by expansion
and economic development?
Sir Rod Eddington: Your question
raises a number of issues. If I might take the second part of
your question first. One of the things we are doing is not just
looking in the UK, we are looking outside the UK. You take good
ideas wherever you can find them. I think the Spanish example
is a good one. The Spanish have been major beneficiaries of entry
into the EU. They have made major investments in airports, in
places like Madrid and Barcelona they have put in high speed rail
links and they have had a substantial investment in new infrastructure.
Q39 Mr Goodwill: I am
told there are a lot of empty motorways.
Sir Rod Eddington: Clearly one
of the challenges is how you strike the balance between investment
in new infrastructure and making sure that we reinvest in existing
infrastructure. Again, as I go round the country, and I repeat
I have not finished that journey yet, the two issues that are
probably raised most regularly with us—issues like planning
and congestion are raised with us—are congestion-infrastructure
is less reliable and what impact does unreliability have on the
economy? Trucking companies will say, "If a journey from
our logistics hub in Birmingham to the stores that we serve, that
circuit normally takes two hours but one in four takes three hours,
we must plan on three hours and that has implications for the
number of trucks we need on the roads, the number of drivers we
use." Congestion equals a lack in reliability and that is
a tax on the economy, and a substantial tax as well. I think there
is an issue about how we make sure we get the best out of existing
infrastructure. That is the second issue. Reliability is usually
the first, "Are we getting the best out of infrastructure
we have at the moment". Demand management is part of that
discussion, but it is only part of it. The bottom line is we have
a lot of transport infrastructure in this country and I think
one of the reasons why the Spanish experience is interesting but
different is that, in a sense, they are building infrastructure
that in some cases was built in this country 50 years ago and
that places a substantial repair and maintenance burden on us.
I think one of the challenges to this country, particularly when
we look at rail and road—we have not spoken about ports
much but I think ports are the forgotten piece of transport infrastructure
in this country—there is a substantial requirement to make
sure that infrastructure is in tiptop working order, because if
it is not the congestion problem exacerbates and that is a tax
on the economy.
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