Examination of Witness (Questions 40-59)
SIR ROD
EDDINGTON
30 NOVEMBER 2005
Q40 Chairman: Of course,
a lot of that money that went into Spain was not government money
directly or private money, it came from European institution funds.
Sir Rod Eddington: Indeed.
Chairman: If you could get us perhaps
reclassified as a second Ireland, perhaps we could follow that.
Mr Goodwill: The Government has commissioned
a number of reports in recent weeks, this week's Pension Report
being a case in point which has cost £1.6 million, and it
appears that they are going to ignore many of the conclusions
of that report. Can I ask what the budget is for your report,
including civil servants' time, and whether you are confident
that your conclusions will be acted upon by the Government?
Q41 Chairman: Are you
good value for money, Sir Rod?
Sir Rod Eddington: On the basis
that I am not being paid a penny, Chairman, I will leave you to
be the judge of that. Our budget is very small, it will be less
than that, but it does include the time of the civil servants
who work on this process.
Q42 Mr Goodwill: Will
they act on your conclusions?
Sir Rod Eddington: I absolutely
believe they will; I would not be doing the work if I did not.
I think the Secretary of State for Transport—I have worked
with a number—is very serious about the issues and is very
serious about trying to come to terms with them.
Chairman: Mind you, if they do not you
might finish up as a Viscount!
Q43 Clive Efford: A big
question facing you in the next nine months is there is only so
much public money going into the transport system, what do we
run it for and who do we run it for and who benefits. Will issues
around environmental impact and social inclusion, which are very
high up the Government's agenda in terms of its policies, be any
constraint on the recommendations that you might make?
Sir Rod Eddington: As I said,
I have been asked to look at it through an economic lens; however,
I recognise governments when they take decisions on these issues
do reflect on other issues. It is important to me, for instance,
that I understand how the environmental piece fits into this,
not because I am charged with doing any substantial piece of work
on that but I have already met with the Transport 2000 team to
understand the issues that they believe are appropriate and relevant
in this discussion. Similarly, as we go round the country issues
of social inclusion and economic regeneration are raised with
us, so I am mindful of that. Nevertheless, I am particularly keen
that we understand the links between transport and the economy
and the implications of taking decisions around our transport
infrastructure.
Q44 Chairman: In which
case I want to ask you one or two specific questions. Are you
doing any work on the north-south high speed rail link?
Sir Rod Eddington: I have already
spoken to the people who are championing the Maglev. I am very
interested in the north-south high speed link and, of course,
the most interesting piece of that jigsaw puzzle that is new is
whether or not it would make sense to go for technology like that.
Q45 Chairman: But you
are not just looking at it in terms of one scheme, you are looking
at the theory of a north-south high speed link?
Sir Rod Eddington: Yes, absolutely.
Q46 Chairman: What about
ports? Are you going to connect your work with the strategic review
of ports which the Secretary of State said would begin next year?
Sir Rod Eddington: If I could
just say a few words about ports, Chairman, because, as I said
earlier on, I believe they are the forgotten piece of our transport
infrastructure, primarily because those of us who sit in this
room regularly use the road, the rail and the airports, but very
rarely go to visit the ports, and with security arrangements as
they are today that is not going to change. It is absolutely clear
that Britain will continue to be a major importer of raw materials,
agricultural products and finished goods and 95% by weight of
that, 75% by value of that, will come through our port network.
The ports are absolutely fundamental to the smooth running of
our economy and the quality of people's lives. People do not think
about ports but when they walk into supermarkets much of what
they buy on the shelves comes through our ports. We have already
spoken to a wide range of port operators and we have had significant
visits to two substantial ports in this country. We were in Tees
Port yesterday and we will visit others as part of the rest of
our study. I am particularly interested in the issues they raise
with us. They include the planning issue and, although I have
no role in current planning applications, clearly I am very interested
in the role the planning process plays in this important issue
of transport. They raise with us surface access to the ports and
the degree to which the road and rail networks are or are not
connected. They raise other issues as well. I think we have some
very efficient ports in this country and we neglect them at our
peril.
Q47 Chairman: I think
that is interesting. You are assuming that part of your report
will have a major implication for the ports industry and the links
to other forms of transport?
Sir Rod Eddington: Yes, indeed.
To answer the second part of your question, I would be very happy
if the work we are doing on ports fed into the ports review which
DfT will begin early next year.
Q48 Chairman: You have
mentioned several times the question of management, particularly
in relation to things like congestion and roads.
Sir Rod Eddington: Yes.
Q49 Chairman: Are you
assuming that road charging will, in fact, be a basic platform
for that kind of management? After all, you have made it very
plain to us that you are not looking at what is happening tomorrow.
Sir Rod Eddington: The short answer
is yes, I am assuming that demand management will be a part of
the picture in the timescales I am talking about, if not before.
It is an issue that I have discussed at significant length with
the different stakeholders as I go round. I think there is a broad
view that it is inevitable. There is a view that the devil is
in the detail and we have to think very carefully about what we
do, about what technology we use, about how we use it. There are
concerns in some places that unless there is at least a national
thought process which runs through demand management, some city
centres in some regions might miss out because if there are congestion
charges levied in some areas and not in others business might
migrate from one to another. There are some concerns about it
but I think there is a general view, and I am assuming that demand
management will be part of what we do, and unless I hear something
radically in the next month—
Q50 Chairman: That brings
me rather neatly to the whole question of funding. Is your main
brief to develop schemes through partnerships with the private
sector?
Sir Rod Eddington: No.
Q51 Chairman: It is quite
interesting that you quoted Hong Kong, which you and I both know
well, and we also know that many of those schemes only came into
being because it was government money, government direction, government
commitment to specific schemes which are still being carried out,
even if some of them are being offered for privatisation.
Sir Rod Eddington: Indeed.
Q52 Chairman: Is that
the way you envisage our future transport system being organised?
Sir Rod Eddington: It would be
too early for me to give you a definitive answer to that because
I am not clear in my own mind what the answer is. It is clear
that there has to be the right balance between public and private
involvement of funding and at the end of the day it is for government
to decide what that balance is. In talking about Hong Kong in
response to your earlier question, Hong Kong has a reputation,
rightly I think, for being a true global entrepôt
where the infrastructure is first class, hard and soft, not just
physical infrastructure but the rule of law and education and
other key issues. There is an example, as you rightly say, where
government has taken an important role in many major infrastructure
projects.
Q53 Chairman: To be fair,
Hong Kong Government, at the moment anyway, does operate on a
slightly more controlled plan than the British one, although I
suppose we are always open to change.
Sir Rod Eddington: The democratic
model is different there.
Chairman: I think that is a nice way
of putting it. I assume that you are thinking about that because
you may have to go back to Hong Kong at some point!
Q54 Graham Stringer: Not
to live again.
Sir Rod Eddington: A place to
visit, yes.
Q55 Chairman: Yes, there
have been some very interesting conversations with Senior Citizen
Lee. I think it is interesting to know whether you think that
the lack of investment in our infrastructure, particularly transport
infrastructure, has been because of the Government's involvement
in the private sector. The things that you mentioned were quite
interesting when you said "I have just come back", and
you quoted the four major schemes. Quite a lot of those were specifically
held up because of the change from, in effect, a nationally controlled
scheme to a privately financed scheme.
Sir Rod Eddington: One of the
things I am very keen to understand is what the impediments to
action are. What is clear when I speak to people about why we
have been unable to do more is a number of issues are raised.
One is the Government's model, the one you have described, and
another is the planning issue. The ports people, for instance,
would say, "The capital is available, we are prepared to
invest but the planning process is too long, too complicated,
too expensive and too uncertain". If I can come back to the
Hong Kong analogy: most of the infrastructure of Hong Kong, which
is world class, was built when it was part of Britain, effectively,
it was a British colony.
Q56 Chairman: But not
directly with British finance.
Sir Rod Eddington: No, it was
not. Why is it that we have been unable to do the sorts of things
in this country that have happened in other places? That is why
one of the issues that I think is really important is what is
the decision making process, what is the Government's model, who
decides what, how do we get the right balance, but also how do
we make sure that we make decisions in a timely way and move them
along.
Q57 Chairman: Sir John
Bourn in this House last week said that there are over 700 PPPs
and PFIs and large numbers of those are in transport. Have you
been asked to look at the overall effect of that sort of development
on the amounts of capital that would be available for new schemes?
It would be interesting to know whether the Government is, in
effect, doing a running total of what future governments are going
to have to cough up under these private arrangements.
Sir Rod Eddington: I have not
been asked that specifically but it is clearly an issue, as I
said. The issues of what is it that is required, what is deliverable
and how is it funded, are all critical pieces at this stage for
me.
Q58 Chairman: Sir Rod,
as I said at the beginning, it is always a delight to see you.
I do note that you agreed very foolishly to come back again, and
I will remind you of that.
Sir Rod Eddington: Indeed, Chairman.
As you will appreciate I will need to present my thoughts to the
ministers first but—
Q59 Chairman: We do not
mind you doing obeisance to the Chancellor first.
Sir Rod Eddington: I look forward
to coming back when I have some clear thoughts and findings for
your Committee.
Chairman: We are very grateful to you,
thank you very much indeed.
| 
