Select Committee on Transport Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360 - 379)

WEDNESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2005

MS KAREN BUCK MP AND MR MIKE TALBOT

  Q360  Mrs Ellman: We have had a lot of evidence that there is inadequate information given to motorists about how they could make representations about fines. Who should be putting that right? Is that something the Department should be doing?

  Ms Buck: The issue of representations we understand is one of the clusters of areas around parking enforcement where I think there is a recognition that there is something of a problem. Within the statutory guidance we will consult on some measures. Some local authorities think they only have a duty to consider representations on statutory grounds whereas we think that all representations have to be considered on their own merits. There is also a case for saying that the adjudicator can refer back to local authorities where there are exceptional circumstances to ask for those to be reconsidered. So those are measures that we will be consulting on.

  Q361  Mrs Ellman: What about the provision for a 50% discount for payment within 14 days, should that be changed on a national basis so that people are not deterred from making representations?

  Ms Buck: I do not think so. I think there is an argument that whatever time you set there will always be a pressure immediately under that time. I do not think 14 days is an unreasonable time for people to make their representations.

  Q362  Mrs Ellman: Do you not think that that is going to deter people from making representations when the time span for those being considered is considerably more than 14 days?

  Ms Buck: I am not convinced that there is a strong case for changing the 14 days.

  Q363  Mrs Ellman: Our attention has also been drawn to the confusion between "public" holiday and "bank" holiday resulting in fines on New Year's Day as a result of people not getting proper information as to when fines are levied.

  Ms Buck: Would you mind if I turned to Mr Talbot on that particular issue?

  Mr Talbot: It is something that has come up and we have had some correspondence about it from people who have been ticketed on days when they had not expected it. I think there is the general question about information provided to motorists on the streets, about being able to understand that, and it is quite difficult to be entirely prescriptive about it because in some circumstances you may want to have controls on public holidays and bank holidays and you might even want to distinguish between the two because of the particular local circumstances, and so it is trying to promote good practice by the local authorities and encourage them to be explicit about what the regulations are in any particular circumstance. We are certainly keen to see good-quality and clear information being provided to motorists. It is an issue that has got more complicated as the signage and the regulations have got more complicated simply because of the pressure of competition for kerb space.

  Q364  Mrs Ellman: Do you take the National Ombudsman's recommendations seriously?

  Ms Buck: Very much so. I think that some of those issues, which very much reflect some of the pressure of correspondence and concern in recent years, are very much informing the work that is coming out and will be consulted on in the new year.

  Q365  Mrs Ellman: What kinds of discussions have you had about the 2003 recommendations?

  Mr Talbot: Can I say that in developing the Traffic Management Act regulations and guidance we have had a working group which has drawn together the various stakeholders in the industry, including many of the people who have appeared in front of this Committee, representing both the road users and the local authorities and adjudicators, so across the spectrum of those involved, and we have fed into that process quite a range of documents and reports that have come out over recent years from the Ombudsman, from the British Parking Association, from others who have produced reports in this area. We have been endeavouring to pick up on the various things that have come out of those reports in our deliberations on how to take forward the guidance.

  Q366  Mrs Ellman: There is one recommendation for an Inspectorate of Civil Traffic Enforcement within local authorities. Have you had any discussions on that?

  Ms Buck: We are not convinced that there is a need for an additional regulatory body. We are satisfied with some of the enforcement provisions in the field that I have already outlined and we think that that should be adequate without setting up an additional bureaucracy.

  Q367  Mrs Ellman: When you publish the statutory guidance and code of practice will you be looking at issues to do with loading?

  Ms Buck: We are very conscious of the issue of freight. Of course, local parking authorities do have to balance the legitimate concerns of businesses in terms of loading against all of the competing pressures on parking, but in terms of the guidance, Mr Talbot, is there anything additional?

  Mr Talbot: It will not go into great detail because the guidance itself is more of a strategic document.

  Q368  Chairman: I am sorry, Mr Talbot, I lost the last word.

  Ms Buck: More of a strategic document.

  Q369  Chairman: More strategic than that which you have had before?

  Mr Talbot: Yes.

  Ms Buck: More strategic than necessarily going into prescriptive detail about, say, loading and unloading versus other demands.

  Q370  Chairman: — So you are going to address it but you are not going to actually do it in detail?

  Mr Talbot: Yes, it will not cover it in detail.

  Q371  Mrs Ellman: Have you identified delivering and loading as a problem for certain users?

  Mr Talbot: We know that it is a problem in certain areas and that certain types of businesses have particular problems. That is certainly the case.

  Q372  Mrs Ellman: Which businesses have the most problems on this?

  Ms Buck: To take an example, if you look at the areas where there is exceptionally high pressure for kerb space and parking space, such as London, this is very much a recognised problem. Transport for London in that sense are looking at a piece of work to develop an action plan on how they deal with freight. I think that is appropriate and in London there is a case for looking at that strategically across the board, but really there is a very strong argument that says that local authorities do need to make some of these decisions in local circumstances because the variation is so huge.

  Q373  Mrs Ellman: What about bullion deliveries? Is there not a safety aspect there that is of national importance? Has that ever been raised with you?

  Mr Talbot: I do not remember it being raised although with any parking restrictions and loading restrictions there are usually provisions within the related traffic order where somebody would be allowed to go there and not be penalised for it if appropriate discussions had taken place beforehand. Under the criminalised parking enforcement regime you could go to the local police station and say, "I have got this problem," and they would work it through, and there should be no reason in principle why not.

  Q374  Mrs Ellman: Is that something that you think local authorities should deal with or something that the Department should? I have mentioned bullion and there are also beer deliveries.

  Ms Buck: I am quite happy to take that away and reflect on it because that is new to me. I am slight chary about saying there should be some national policy on particular sectors. The trouble is there is so much competing pressure in some areas and other areas where there simply is not and therefore there is not the need for it.

  Q375  Chairman: I am sorry, I am not clear what is the point of strategic advice that does not address particular areas, or is it a general broad brush approach "we would like you to control your parking policies"? It could be quite brief.

  Ms Buck: I think it would be fair to say that there are some areas in which we are being specific, around the area of representations for example, and some areas where it is more about good practice.

  Q376  Chairman: I do not want to go back over all that; I just want a few simple answers really. Are you aware that parking, loading and unloading is a difficulty in urban areas, and is it your intention to either improve or clarify the existing rules in relation to parking?

  Ms Buck: I do not believe—and I could be corrected on this by Mr Talbot—that we will be consulting on the guidance on specific proposals around loading and unloading.

  Q377  Chairman: So it is not your intention to strengthen the existing procedure?

  Mr Talbot: In addition to the statutory guidance there are various codes of practice being produced, not necessarily by the Department but by others, for example.

  Q378  Chairman: Whom for example?

  Mr Talbot: The Association of London Government, for example.

  Chairman: Yes, but that relates to London. I think Mr Martlew has a point on this.

  Q379  Mr Martlew: Are you producing statutory guidance and statutory regulations and are they going to be separate or are we going to have a third set, by the sound of it?

  Ms Buck: There will be both.

  Mr Talbot: There will regulations and there will be statutory guidance.


 
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