Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360
- 379)
WEDNESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2005
MS KAREN
BUCK MP AND
MR MIKE
TALBOT
Q360 Mrs Ellman: We have had a lot
of evidence that there is inadequate information given to motorists
about how they could make representations about fines. Who should
be putting that right? Is that something the Department should
be doing?
Ms Buck: The issue of representations
we understand is one of the clusters of areas around parking enforcement
where I think there is a recognition that there is something of
a problem. Within the statutory guidance we will consult on some
measures. Some local authorities think they only have a duty to
consider representations on statutory grounds whereas we think
that all representations have to be considered on their own merits.
There is also a case for saying that the adjudicator can refer
back to local authorities where there are exceptional circumstances
to ask for those to be reconsidered. So those are measures that
we will be consulting on.
Q361 Mrs Ellman: What about the provision
for a 50% discount for payment within 14 days, should that be
changed on a national basis so that people are not deterred from
making representations?
Ms Buck: I do not think so. I
think there is an argument that whatever time you set there will
always be a pressure immediately under that time. I do not think
14 days is an unreasonable time for people to make their representations.
Q362 Mrs Ellman: Do you not think
that that is going to deter people from making representations
when the time span for those being considered is considerably
more than 14 days?
Ms Buck: I am not convinced that
there is a strong case for changing the 14 days.
Q363 Mrs Ellman: Our attention has
also been drawn to the confusion between "public" holiday
and "bank" holiday resulting in fines on New Year's
Day as a result of people not getting proper information as to
when fines are levied.
Ms Buck: Would you mind if I turned
to Mr Talbot on that particular issue?
Mr Talbot: It is something that
has come up and we have had some correspondence about it from
people who have been ticketed on days when they had not expected
it. I think there is the general question about information provided
to motorists on the streets, about being able to understand that,
and it is quite difficult to be entirely prescriptive about it
because in some circumstances you may want to have controls on
public holidays and bank holidays and you might even want to distinguish
between the two because of the particular local circumstances,
and so it is trying to promote good practice by the local authorities
and encourage them to be explicit about what the regulations are
in any particular circumstance. We are certainly keen to see good-quality
and clear information being provided to motorists. It is an issue
that has got more complicated as the signage and the regulations
have got more complicated simply because of the pressure of competition
for kerb space.
Q364 Mrs Ellman: Do you take the
National Ombudsman's recommendations seriously?
Ms Buck: Very much so. I think
that some of those issues, which very much reflect some of the
pressure of correspondence and concern in recent years, are very
much informing the work that is coming out and will be consulted
on in the new year.
Q365 Mrs Ellman: What kinds of discussions
have you had about the 2003 recommendations?
Mr Talbot: Can I say that in developing
the Traffic Management Act regulations and guidance we have had
a working group which has drawn together the various stakeholders
in the industry, including many of the people who have appeared
in front of this Committee, representing both the road users and
the local authorities and adjudicators, so across the spectrum
of those involved, and we have fed into that process quite a range
of documents and reports that have come out over recent years
from the Ombudsman, from the British Parking Association, from
others who have produced reports in this area. We have been endeavouring
to pick up on the various things that have come out of those reports
in our deliberations on how to take forward the guidance.
Q366 Mrs Ellman: There is one recommendation
for an Inspectorate of Civil Traffic Enforcement within local
authorities. Have you had any discussions on that?
Ms Buck: We are not convinced
that there is a need for an additional regulatory body. We are
satisfied with some of the enforcement provisions in the field
that I have already outlined and we think that that should be
adequate without setting up an additional bureaucracy.
Q367 Mrs Ellman: When you publish
the statutory guidance and code of practice will you be looking
at issues to do with loading?
Ms Buck: We are very conscious
of the issue of freight. Of course, local parking authorities
do have to balance the legitimate concerns of businesses in terms
of loading against all of the competing pressures on parking,
but in terms of the guidance, Mr Talbot, is there anything additional?
Mr Talbot: It will not go into
great detail because the guidance itself is more of a strategic
document.
Q368 Chairman: I am sorry, Mr Talbot,
I lost the last word.
Ms Buck: More of a strategic document.
Q369 Chairman: More strategic than
that which you have had before?
Mr Talbot: Yes.
Ms Buck: More strategic than necessarily
going into prescriptive detail about, say, loading and unloading
versus other demands.
Q370 Chairman: — So you are
going to address it but you are not going to actually do it in
detail?
Mr Talbot: Yes, it will not cover
it in detail.
Q371 Mrs Ellman: Have you identified
delivering and loading as a problem for certain users?
Mr Talbot: We know that it is
a problem in certain areas and that certain types of businesses
have particular problems. That is certainly the case.
Q372 Mrs Ellman: Which businesses
have the most problems on this?
Ms Buck: To take an example, if
you look at the areas where there is exceptionally high pressure
for kerb space and parking space, such as London, this is very
much a recognised problem. Transport for London in that sense
are looking at a piece of work to develop an action plan on how
they deal with freight. I think that is appropriate and in London
there is a case for looking at that strategically across the board,
but really there is a very strong argument that says that local
authorities do need to make some of these decisions in local circumstances
because the variation is so huge.
Q373 Mrs Ellman: What about bullion
deliveries? Is there not a safety aspect there that is of national
importance? Has that ever been raised with you?
Mr Talbot: I do not remember it
being raised although with any parking restrictions and loading
restrictions there are usually provisions within the related traffic
order where somebody would be allowed to go there and not be penalised
for it if appropriate discussions had taken place beforehand.
Under the criminalised parking enforcement regime you could go
to the local police station and say, "I have got this problem,"
and they would work it through, and there should be no reason
in principle why not.
Q374 Mrs Ellman: Is that something
that you think local authorities should deal with or something
that the Department should? I have mentioned bullion and there
are also beer deliveries.
Ms Buck: I am quite happy to take
that away and reflect on it because that is new to me. I am slight
chary about saying there should be some national policy on particular
sectors. The trouble is there is so much competing pressure in
some areas and other areas where there simply is not and therefore
there is not the need for it.
Q375 Chairman: I am sorry, I am not
clear what is the point of strategic advice that does not address
particular areas, or is it a general broad brush approach "we
would like you to control your parking policies"? It could
be quite brief.
Ms Buck: I think it would be fair
to say that there are some areas in which we are being specific,
around the area of representations for example, and some areas
where it is more about good practice.
Q376 Chairman: I do not want to go
back over all that; I just want a few simple answers really. Are
you aware that parking, loading and unloading is a difficulty
in urban areas, and is it your intention to either improve or
clarify the existing rules in relation to parking?
Ms Buck: I do not believe—and
I could be corrected on this by Mr Talbot—that we will be
consulting on the guidance on specific proposals around loading
and unloading.
Q377 Chairman: So it is not your
intention to strengthen the existing procedure?
Mr Talbot: In addition to the
statutory guidance there are various codes of practice being produced,
not necessarily by the Department but by others, for example.
Q378 Chairman: Whom for example?
Mr Talbot: The Association of
London Government, for example.
Chairman: Yes, but that relates to London.
I think Mr Martlew has a point on this.
Q379 Mr Martlew: Are you producing
statutory guidance and statutory regulations and are they going
to be separate or are we going to have a third set, by the sound
of it?
Ms Buck: There will be both.
Mr Talbot: There will regulations
and there will be statutory guidance.
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