Examination of Witnesses (Questions 400
- 420)
WEDNESDAY 14 DECEMBER 2005
MS KAREN
BUCK MP AND
MR MIKE
TALBOT
Q400 Mr Scott: Earlier it was raised
with us the issue of current planning laws on new build or conversions
of, say, a bank into a public house and the problem is that they
are not part of the planning process at this moment to do with
unloading deliveries, et cetera. Is there any liaison and consultation
with, say, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister on this to
try and get these built into future changes in our planning laws?
Ms Buck: There is certainly consultation
and discussion with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister in
terms of parking and its role in planning guidance overall, absolutely,
but it is very, very important that local authorities are taking
account of different uses, whether that is commercial or residential,
in terms of how they plan for parking, whether that is for freight
delivery or for the parking places they make for residents. Some
of that is set out in planning guidance and is for local authorities
to interpret.
Mr Scott: Thank you, Minister.
Q401 Mr Goodwill: Where an appeal
or, as we have heard this afternoon, a number of identical appeals
have demonstrated quite clearly that a local authority has acted
illegally, do you think that in those circumstances that local
authority should issue refunds to motorists who have been illegally
fined?
Ms Buck: I am not sure that I
am—
Q402 Mr Goodwill: For example if
a bay is incorrectly marked and a number of motorists have appealed
and their appeal has been upheld for that reason, but there are
another 100 or 200 motorists who did not appeal, who just paid
up, do you think there is an obligation placed on that local authority
to actually refund that fine which has been illegally levied on
the motorist?
Ms Buck: This is not something
that has been put to me. I am not conscious of it. Presumably
if that were a regular occurrence it is something that would come
through the complaints procedure, it would go to the Ombudsman
and the local authority would take account of it. However, I am
not sure of the ways in which that kind of issue arise elsewhere
for local authorities necessarily to act to reimburse others whom
they find in other circumstances.
Mr Talbot: I know that there are
authorities that certainly do do that if they have made a mistake.
Q403 Mr Goodwill: They usually ask
people to come forward and that is not quite the same thing as
seeking them out and issuing a refund.
Mr Talbot: Yes and I suppose there
is a balance to be struck in terms of both the public funds being
used and the amounts of money involved, but essentially it is
for the authorities—they are statutory bodies, responsible
bodies—to act according to their statutes.
Ms Buck: I think unless required
to do so through the legal process, and I am thinking of other
areas in which complaints are made against local authorities or
an Ombudsman decision is found against a local authority, I am
not conscious that local authorities necessarily go out or are
obliged to go out and seek others who have been so disadvantaged
and to reimburse them. They may choose to do so in some circumstances
but there are several local authority ex-councillors and leaders
around the table, and as an ex-councillor myself I am not conscious
of the fact that that was standard practice.
Q404 Mr Goodwill: I will take that
as a "yes but, no but"! Just to change the subject entirely,
do you think we have adequate provision for overnight parking
facilities in this country for freight drivers who have to sleep
in their cabs?
Ms Buck: I have no evidence in
front of me to indicate whether that is the case or otherwise.
I do not know whether Mr Talbot is aware of that but it is not
an issue that has been presented to me.
Mr Talbot: I know that there are
concerns about the amount of facilities for drivers of freight
vehicles. I know colleagues in the Highways Agency have been looking
at what can be done to help provide for that within the bit of
the network for which they are responsible.
Q405 Chairman: If we could ask you
one or two questions just to wind up because we do not want to
keep you too long. The British Parking Association thinks it would
be a good idea to have a Parking Regulator. Have you considered
this?
Ms Buck: We do not see any argument
at the moment for introducing an additional tier of regulation
into parking.
Q406 Chairman: Is it a good idea
to allow people to park on pavements outside the London area where
it is illegal? Do you intend to look at pavement parking?
Ms Buck: It is certainly not a
good idea.
Q407 Chairman: Do you intend to look
at pavement parking across the country?
Mr Talbot: We have looked at pavement
parking across the country, as I said earlier, but it is difficult
to legislate for a blanket ban.
Q408 Chairman: If it is difficult
for the disabled to get along roads because people park on pavements
inside London, why should it not be difficult for people outside
London?
Mr Talbot: All I am saying is
that it is difficult to have a blanket ban across the country
in the way that there is a blanket ban across London. There is
the possibility for authorities outside London to ban pavement
parking and to enforce it if they have got decriminalised parking
enforcement powers.
Q409 Chairman: You would not use
that for anywhere else?
Ms Buck: If there are local authorities
that are not currently in the decriminalised parking enforcement
system who regard that as a particular problem, then by coming
into the decriminalised parking enforcement system that is something
to which they would be able to extend their powers.
Q410 Chairman: Do you suggest to
local authorities that they use the benchmarking service provided
by the Transport Research Laboratory?
Mr Talbot: We have not promoted
that specifically.
Q411 Chairman: Would it be a good
idea since it is a very accurate way of looking at what is happening?
Mr Talbot: It is closely linked
to the model contract that we worked with the BPA to develop,
so we would find it difficult perhaps to promote a particular
benchmarking one because it is a private company.
Q412 Chairman: Although it is an
independent benchmark? If you do not want to do that, what about
saying that you would like to establish a national database of
blue badge holders?
Ms Buck: The blue badge holders
provisions are under review and we are looking to introduce—
Q413 Chairman: So do you intend to
do something to make sure that they cannot be abused?
Ms Buck: We are currently preparing
a provision along those lines and we will be consulting on it.
Q414 Chairman: Are you looking at
the whole question of the Innovation Fund in relation to many
of the things that we are asking you about this afternoon?
Ms Buck: The Transport Innovation
Fund can, of course, encompass parking strategies and indeed it
is very important that it should do so. Things like park-and-ride
and workplace parking schemes and other use of parking provision,
particularly in high-demand areas, are a really important part
of demand management, and the pilot money that is coming forward
now is encouraging authorities to look at ways in which they can
deal with demand management. In some cases it will be around the
congestion charging/road pricing model; in some cases it will
be looking at parking provision, so yes.
Q415 Chairman: Do you not put the
whole question of parking controls and management at the bottom
of your terms of review in what is necessary for a successful
bid?
Ms Buck: I suppose something has
to come bottom.
Q416 Chairman: Yes except one could
say—
Ms Buck: In any list there is
always going to be one at the bottom
Q417 Chairman: It could have indicated
your idea of priorities, do you not think?
Ms Buck: No, there is a list of
priorities. I think that is reading too much into it. If we took
parking and put it top something else would come bottom. I do
not think it is fair because I am actually very clear and I think
it is coming through from local authorities that the road pricing/congestion
charging element on the one hand and parking strategies on the
other are absolutely at the heart of what demand management is
going to be about and very much the kind of things that the DfT
is looking for. I think in practice, regardless of where it stands
on a list, it really is a high priority.
Q418 Chairman: Have you weakened
the requirements for local transport plans to include detailed
parking strategies in your second round or strengthened them?
Ms Buck: I am not sure that I
would choose to use either of those words. I think that local
transport plans are expected to look at the whole range of transport
provision in their local area and that as we are into the second
wave of transport plans there are sets of priorities that we encourage
people to look at. It does not mean that parking has dropped out.
Parking is central to all of this.
Q419 Chairman: Finally, can I ask
you about something that is very worrying to us. It does seem,
and we have taken evidence about this today, as though the Department
in this new set of strategy documents is moving away from very
clear, very easily understandable, straightforward recommendations
to a great many more "strategic" discussions that might
not have been so easy to understand. Do you regard it as the responsibility
of the Department to make the attitude of the Government towards
proper traffic control clear to local authorities?
Ms Buck: Yes, absolutely, I think
that is intrinsic to the Traffic Management Act and that will
be very clear in both the statutory guidance and in the regulations.
Just to go back to where I started, a lot of parking enforcement
works well and the local dimension of it is very important. The
intention is not to pour minutiae in terms of requirements on
to local authorities, but it has got to set some clear guidance.
Q420 Chairman: But there has got
to be some clear set of parameters, has there not, because most
of us understand the difference between detail and making it clear
what the hell they are talking about?
Ms Buck: Indeed, and I am confident
that the guidance and regulations that will come out, which will
enact amongst other things parts of the Traffic Management Act,
will be clear and will require local authorities to ensure that
their parking enforcement is a key part of their transport policy
and that that enforcement is fair, reasonable and proportionate.
Chairman: On that joyous note, Minister,
may I thank you and Mr Talbot most warmly for your evidence. The
Committee is adjourned.
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