Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160-179)
MR JOHN
EAGLES, CAPTAIN
MERVYN GRANSHAW
AND MR
DAVID LUXTON
11 JANUARY 2006
Q160 Chairman: Mr Luxton, did you
want to comment on that? You would not disagree with that presumably?
Mr Luxton: No, I would not, I
endorse those comments.
Chairman: Mrs Ellman?
Q161 Mrs Ellman: What are the problems
that you see with EASA?
Captain Granshaw: They have been
described very eloquently by Sir Roy. It did have an unfortunate
start. I think one thing that he was perhaps unable to say is
that it is currently badly led. He may have just implied that.
It is under-resourced, it is under-funded. It is the way to go
and what we have to appeal to you and Government to do is to make
sure that the resource is there and the funding is there.
Q162 Chairman: Badly led in what
sense? One person's general facing the wrong way could be somebody
else's saviour.
Captain Granshaw: Yes, I think
it is becoming recognised generally, and I think Sir Roy suggested
that whilst he and his team were a lone voice a year ago, they
are not so now. Regulation is not even throughout Europe. There
are very small numbers of experienced regulators and in places
no regulators, but the major experienced regulators in Europe
now have serious doubts about their capabilities. I think we all
feel it is right to move in that direction but not to move ahead
of their capabilities, which is clearly evident now, and the point
that was made quite eloquently about stopping research before
the other one is ready is clearly ridiculous.
Q163 Mrs Ellman: What have been the
most important reasons for moving in this direction?
Captain Granshaw: I think we did
it with the car some years ago. To produce a car and then have
to have it tested in every European state is, frankly, a waste
of time and money, and the same thing with aircraft type certificates
and so on and so forth. If you can agree a single standard then
one test for it should pass it across all of Europe. We are one
body with one set of standards. As was explained, this has been
going on for some time. It started with the design of Concorde
which was an English/French arrangement through the JAA and there
has been a lot of work that has been done quite successfully.
The problem with the JAA is that it had no legal basis and the
problem with EASA is that it is running ahead of its abilities.
I have an additional problem with EASA and that is that one senses
the CAA, if it is possible for an organisation to have one of
these, does have a conscience. There is a sense of responsibility
and accountability. I sense in EASA that if the rule book is written
and the rule book is followed then that is as far as they feel
they need to be accountable and there is no conscience that anybody
I speak to is able to detect in EASA, and in safety I think that
is an important omission.
Q164 Mrs Ellman: You are saying that
you are not opposed to the principle; it is how it is being done
and how it is being run?
Captain Granshaw: Absolutely.
Mr Eagles: I would agree with
that. EASA was formed with very little debate rather hurriedly
and it is proving it as it is becoming more used. For instance,
the top four levels of management of EASA are non-aviation people.
Q165 Chairman: EASA?
Mr Eagles: Yes.
Q166 Chairman: Non-aviation people?
Mr Eagles: Yes.
Q167 Chairman: Do we know what they
are, Mr Eagles?
Mr Eagles: The head of it, M Goudou,
came from the French defence industry, nothing to do with aviation,
and I think now we can begin to see the problems that the CAA
and we are having as well.
Q168 Mrs Ellman: How big is the problem
of CAA staff leaving in anticipation of the work that EASA is
going to do?
Captain Granshaw: That is a question
best directed to them but certainly from our point of view attracting
competent people into certain areas in the CAA has always been
difficult. It is very difficult to find anyone from among my colleagues
who fly. There are no market rates of pay so to attract experienced
captains to go in to monitor the safety regulation has proved
almost impossible. With this new dimension, frankly, it is way
out of alignment. There are also educational restrictions and
various other limitations that mean the right people who may have
spent 25 years in the industry and have an enormous amount of
experience are, because they may not have some particular tick
in some particular box, not eligible to apply to EASA, so I think
there are some fairly fundamental flaws in its structural and
human resources requirements.
Mr Eagles: If I can give an example
there. If an engineer from the CAA wants a position within EASA,
the EASA requirements are first of all a degree and secondly experience.
Most European engineers have to have a degree before they can
practise. We adopt a more practical approach in that our engineers
are practical people.
Q169 Chairman: You like them to know
a bit about engineering?
Mr Eagles: Yes.
Q170 Chairman: Strange!
Mr Eagles: They are more practical.
To get a job within EASA the qualification is first of all a degree
followed by so many years experience. Consequently our engineers
from the CAA are at a disadvantage so we are not getting the people
from the CAA into EASA that we would like.
Q171 Mr Leech: Just on that point,
so are you suggesting then that the best people—and I presume
we have the best people in this country—may not be getting
jobs purely because they do not have degrees?
Mr Eagles: Yes.
Q172 Chairman: There is no recognition
of comparable engineering qualifications; is this what you are
telling us?
Mr Eagles: That is right, yes,
it is only from the degree and from that time onwards does their
practical experience count.
Q173 Chairman: Oh, so you could be
30 years doing the job but if you have not got a degree or you
worked for the Ecole Nationale then—?
Mr Eagles: Yes, that is correct.
Q174 Chairman: Has anybody pointed
out that this is a mild form of discrimination?
Mr Eagles: It is indeed, yes.
Mr Luxton: If it helps, Chairman,
we had a similar problem over the licensing of air traffic controllers.
I know it is not specific to this inquiry but there the initial
proposal was that every air traffic controller would need to have
a degree whereas of course the requirement is more about practical
aptitude and spatial awareness and attributes that are not related
to academic qualifications.
Chairman: I do not find it entirely surprising
that Europe does not require any knowledge of the subject but
I find it a little unusual and at least we could have made it
clear that we did not think this was the way forward.
Q175 Mrs Ellman: Is this issue being
pursued by Prospect?
Mr Luxton: Certainly in the example
I gave we have pursued that successfully during the UK Government
Consultation in terms of the European licensing and there is not
the strict requirement now for the degree level in terms of the
licensing arrangements that will be introduced shortly, but I
thought it is relevant to this discussion.
Q176 Mr Leech: If you have been successful,
Mr Luxton, is there any likelihood, Mr Eagles, that you will be
successful in terms of the engineers?
Mr Eagles: Possibly. The main
body of people is coming from the Civil Aviation Authority and
I would think that they are going to push that idea forward.
Q177 Mr Leech: So are you aware that
the CAA is pursuing this?
Mr Eagles: I know that they are
aware of the problem. I do not know what action they are taking
to pursue it.
Q178 Mrs Ellman: BALPA have said
that the CAA ignores aircraft crews' and cabin crews' health and
safety requirements. What was the evidence for that?
Captain Granshaw: It was news
to me what was described earlier in evidence about research. There
is very serious research underway with the FAA that we have appealed
to the CAA to join in with and as far as I am aware they have
resisted that. We have also appealed for support into research
to collect better data, to collect better evidence, to better
understand the issues. The facts are, of course, that the oils
that run in a jet engine are extremely toxic and when engines
are either poorly maintained or seals fail or other problems occur,
which happens from time to time, it is that air that is bled off
and you breathe as a passenger or crew member in the aeroplane,
and some individuals when there are these episodic moments (and
they are not that common but they are more common on some engine
types and some aeroplanes) are seriously and permanently affected,
but it is so episodic as to be difficult to track. The reports
are probably not collated properly and it is our belief that we
should be looking into this now.
Q179 Mrs Ellman: You believe that
this is a serious problem?
Captain Granshaw: Yes. We have
a number of members who have lost their medical licences and are
unable to continue with their careers as a result, we believe,
of organophosphate poisoning.
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