Examination of Witnesses (Questions 500-519)
MALCOLM WICKS
AND MR
PAUL MCINTYRE
10 OCTOBER 2006
Q500 Mr Binley: I am not sure you
have.
Malcolm Wicks: I think we have
made a decision.
Chairman: I think you probably have too.
Q501 Mr Weir: The nuclear industry
have told us when they came before us and it was reported again
at the weekend that pro-nuclear groups have said and agreed that
a long-term storage solution for waste needs to be in place before
there is any investment in new stations. Do you think that the
work of the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management has achieved
that as yet?
Malcolm Wicks: It is an expert
and very important report and the formal position is that my colleague
the Secretary of State for the Environment will be presenting
the Government's response to that committee quite soon now.
Q502 Mr Weir: What timescale are
you talking about before there is actually a disposal system in
place for dealing with historic never mind new waste?
Malcolm Wicks: I think you will
see an announcement before Christmas. It is for Defra to say this
not me, but that is roughly the timescale. Obviously there is
then a process of local communities coming forward with offers
of being the site for this. That is the process we are in. We
are talking about quite a long period here, of course we are.
Q503 Mr Weir: I appreciate that as
much as anyone. Given that the cost for disposal of historic waste
has risen from an original figure quoted of about £40 billion
to perhaps as much as £90 billion if stories be true, you
have told us that there will be no direct or indirect subsidies
for nuclear power stations. Is that the same for the disposal
of waste?
Malcolm Wicks: Yes.
Q504 Mr Weir: Are you expecting companies
to pay for that?
Malcolm Wicks: Yes.
Q505 Mr Weir: Absolutely?
Malcolm Wicks: Yes.
Q506 Mr Weir: Why then in the Energy
Review and again when the Secretary of State introduced it, did
he use a rather strange phrase "a full share of the cost
of disposal"? What do you mean by that? Can you give us an
assurance that they will pay all the costs of disposal?
Malcolm Wicks: Yes, they will.
We have two things, have we not? We have a legacy of nuclear waste
which, perfectly properly as these were state enterprises, the
state has to sort out, it is long-term, it is scientifically complex,
engineering-wise it is complex and it is certainly expensive.
Surely we all agree that given that legacy we have to do something
about that. I think that through the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority,
which is clearing up the waste from different sites, and the decision
which has to be made and will be made by Government about the
outcome of the Committee of Radioactive Waste Management report,
in other words the final repository for the waste, I can be proud
of the fact that we are the first Government tackling this issue.
I am ashamed of the fact that governments and parliaments in the
past for several decades have dodged the issue. I think that is
a national disgrace. We are actually tackling it and it is important.
So we are putting that in process and then of course, should the
market come forward with proposals for new nuclear reactors, we
need to work out a formula so that they pay the full cost of disposing
of that waste.
Q507 Chairman: May I just check?
"Full cost" is still an elusive phrase. Do you mean
the marginal cost of increasing storage capacity to cope with
the additional waste generated?
Malcolm Wicks: These are difficult
issues. Our objective is that they should pay the full cost. We
need to think through exactly what that means in terms of formula
and arithmetic. I cannot quote you the figure now. Perhaps Mr
McIntyre could explain the process we go through on this with
your permission.
Mr McIntyre: I cannot quote a
figure either, but the Minister is right that there will be a
process now of working with the industry to translate that principle
of full share of the costs into practice so that would-be developers
of new nuclear build have clarity about what that would mean in
practice.
Q508 Mr Weir: Will you then be setting
up a fund against a nuclear developer going bust in the future?
Will they be putting money in as they go along to make sure that
full cost is met?
Malcolm Wicks: These are issues
we have to look at, how money can be set aside on a regular basis
for eventual costs. That is just the kind of question we need
to look at in detail.
Q509 Mr Weir: You have not made a
decision on that yet?
Malcolm Wicks: No, we have not.
We have to consult on that. I do not apologise for us consulting
on that. It is in all sorts of ways a complex question.
Q510 Mr Weir: Everyone we spoke to
highlighted the importance of achieving a political consensus
on nuclear power before proceeding with new build.
Malcolm Wicks: Including the SNP?
Q511 Mr Weir: I said that "they"
said, I did not say I did. Do you think the Energy Review will
achieve that consensus or build towards a consensus?
Malcolm Wicks: I am certainly
happy to shake the warm hand of the Scottish Nationalist Party
on nuclear. This is an historic breakthrough and it will be recorded
in Scottish print as such I am sure, so thank you for that.
Q512 Mr Weir: It is nice to see a
minister twisting words into something which was not said.
Malcolm Wicks: I am just being
polite and repeating your answer.
Q513 Mr Weir: I asked a question
which other people asked about political consensus. Do you think
there is any chance of a political consensus?
Malcolm Wicks: I shall make a
note of your constituency and consider it. Seriously, I think
it is important that the major political parties strive towards
a consensus on energy policy, I really do. I shall not comment
on Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition's position, but if I have understood
it—and I do not always understand it—I think the Conservative
Party see a place for nuclear in the right circumstances. Given
all we have said about long-term certainty, appropriate frameworks,
it is important that we strive for that consensus and I met with
shadow ministers, members of the Liberal Democrat Party, now we
are going to have a big summit with the SNP on these issues, and
that is important.
Q514 Mr Weir: It is news to me.
Malcolm Wicks: The market and,
more importantly, the public would demand that of us. These are
very important issues. When the history of the twenty-first century
is written, not just for the UK but globally, these twin issues,
global warming and energy security, will loom as importantly as
some of the big issues about war and peace and the rise of the
welfare state in the twentieth century. This is absolutely vital
and we should not play party politics with it and we shall not.
Mr Weir: I asked a straightforward question.
There was nothing party political about it.
Q515 Miss Kirkbride: Can you clarify
whether there can be any new nuclear build in Scotland without
the permission of the Parliament and therefore your Liberal Democrat
colleagues?
Malcolm Wicks: In terms of the
planning regime for that scale of plant, this is a matter for
Scottish Government because those planning issues are devolved.
This will be a matter for those in Scotland.
Q516 Miss Kirkbride: So "no"?
Malcolm Wicks: It is for them
to determine. It is an important British industry, it brings much
investment into communities, jobs and it is for the people of
Scotland to decide.
Q517 Miss Kirkbride: My question
was whether you needed the permission of the Scottish Parliament
for new nuclear build and the answer was yes, therefore no, you
cannot do without it.
Malcolm Wicks: That is the devolution
settlement.
Q518 Chairman: This question of paying
for waste is actually quite an important one, as your document
acknowledges. I found on page 192 that "Details of the work
programme and timetable to establish arrangements for dealing
with the costs of decommissioning and waste ... will be published
by the time of the White Paper". So actually, by the time
the White Paper is out, we shall only know how you are going to
analyse the problem, you will not have reached a conclusion on
the problem. Is that right?
Mr McIntyre: The wording is "by
the time of the White Paper" and the objective will certainly
be to have made progress on this issue by the time of the White
Paper.
Q519 Chairman: It says "Details
of the work programme and timetable to establish arrangements".
So by the time of the White Paper we shall have the process by
which you will arrive at an agreement. It is actually also a very
important issue for the industry to have clarity on costs but
it seems that clarity on costs is quite a long way off, if I have
understood your document correctly.
Mr McIntyre: There is no specific
timetable for reaching agreement on clarity about the costs as
yet.
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