Examination of Witnesses (Questions 580-598)
MALCOLM WICKS
AND MR
PAUL MCINTYRE
10 OCTOBER 2006
Q580 Mr Bone: Is that the best I
am going to get?
Malcolm Wicks: That is pretty
good actually.
Q581 Chairman: I mean this in the
nicest possible way, but you do not strike me as the most aggressive
of ministers.
Malcolm Wicks: No, I am the most
amiable especially before select committees after almost two hours.
Q582 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: When the
National Grid came to give us some evidence earlier on this year
they talked about what they would need to do in order to allow
microgeneration systems to link up to the grid. They talked about
a £1 billion plus investment—£3 billion—which
was needed in order to link microgeneration back into the system
and they also cited it as a major inhibitor for the development
of microgeneration. Given that, you have talked, wonderfully by
the way, about the type of grants which are currently available
to people living in domestic dwellings for microgeneration systems.
You talked about £80 million, but that comes down to a 50%
grant and I know quite a number of people who have taken up that
particular option. That is fine, but the level of investment needed
in the grid is substantially more than that. How do you see a
continued expansion in microgeneration within the context of a
network which is not actually geared to take any spare capacity
which may derive from that?
Malcolm Wicks: I would need to
talk to National Grid, as we do of course, on this particular
issue to make sure we are using the same language of microgeneration.
Q583 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: It is fairly
easy. Most engineers in this country know that linking up a nuclear
power plant is not difficult, but if you have numbers four, six,
ten and 12 Bartholomew Crescent also wanting to link up to that
system, then it seems to be that there is a fundamental problem.
They can use the energy within their own establishment, but they
cannot export it out and back into the grid. That is really what
we want to see, is it not?
Malcolm Wicks: Yes, we do. It
involves things like smart metering as well so that the customer
can see what is being used. When I say I do not recognise that
figure I am not saying it is wrong or right; I just need to talk
to them about that. Generally we recognise that in terms of broad
approaches to renewables and microgeneration, yes, of course there
are quite important challenges for National Grid and local wiring
systems.
Q584 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: I think those
important challenges have very, very big numbers attached to them
in terms of the investment required. At the moment the lack of
investment is probably impeding the development of microgeneration
systems.
Malcolm Wicks: I am sure there
are people already, but I shall check this, who are already selling
back to the grid without massive investment.
Q585 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: That may
be because of where they are located. I am only telling you what
National Grid actually said when they came to give us evidence
on this matter.
Malcolm Wicks: I had better check
the record on that and pursue that.
Q586 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Your encouraging
words with regard to the adoption of microgeneration as far as
schools are concerned is very, very encouraging and the marvellous
programme we have for building schools for the future means, for
instance, that every school in Knowsley is going to be demolished
bar one and new schools built. My understanding is that at the
moment the contract documents for those schools do not stipulate
that they need to be environmentally friendly. So we can talk
about it and say how commendable this is, but there is massive
public investment going into new buildings now. Mass creation
is one thing, but actually embedding that requirement into a contract
appears to me to be very, very different. You talk about getting
other departments to do their bit, but how does this actually
translate in this massive building programme?
Malcolm Wicks: It translates very
clearly. I have met with the appropriate Education Minister—it
was then Maria Eagle, who is now Sustainable Development Minister—about
this very issue. I can assure you that the Department for Education
and Skills are very much seized by this and they are going to
be doing it. They recognise that we have a fantastic opportunity
in what is a massive school building programme to make sure that—
Q587 Mrs Curtis-Thomas: Minister,
may I just interrupt? "Make sure that they are doing it"
is not actually translating into "they are doing it".
What I should like to do is to get some Parliamentary Questions
put down so that we can see exactly how many of those new schools
have actually implemented this excellent technology. That investment
should be put to better use and I certainly want to see where
the truth of the situation lies in comparison to the rhetoric
on this important matter. We need that assistance.
Malcolm Wicks: May I suggest that
I shall certainly draw this to the attention of the Education
Minister responsible and your Committee will probably do this?
I have been very impressed by their whole approach on this and
they see this as a major opportunity, whereas, more modestly,
I see what we can do with some microgeneration money as a way
of putting it on some existing schools, those which are not going
to be rebuilt to give the children that education opportunity.
Mrs Curtis-Thomas: I agree with that.
Q588 Chairman: This word "microgeneration"
is defined in the Energy Act as generating heat and electricity,
but when people hear the word "generation" they imagine
we are talking about electricity. In microgeneration you would
say that heat production is if anything possibly more important
than electricity generation, would you not?
Malcolm Wicks: Yes, indeed. Solar
panelling is about warming up water, very successfully I am told,
and of course within the array—I do not mean this pejoratively—of
weird and wonderful micro technologies it seems to me the heat
pump is a very interesting development, reasonably popular in
many continental European countries and just beginning to get
into market here.
Q589 Chairman: If social housing
units were built with ground source heat pumps in, you would find
the people of England would not have any gas bills to pay. There
are extraordinary opportunities there.
Malcolm Wicks: It is notable that
you have a number of progressive authorities, Croydon under Labour
control, now I think changed party, I cannot recall; Merton, a
number of local authorities—
Q590 Chairman: And Woking under Liberal
Democrats.
Malcolm Wicks: I am sure one or
two of those—who now say that any new construction under
a certain number of dwellings—I cannot remember the figure—has
to have 10% of the energy coming from renewables. The Department
for Communities and Local Government are looking at that and the
Mayor's Office in London and all that.
Q591 Chairman: There are just lots
of words floating around here. I do not think the vocabulary is
clear and helps. Your energy report talks about distributed energy,
the Act refers to microgeneration. I do not think people know
what this is. There is a need for clarity of language here, is
there not? This is not a criticism of you; we have to find a new
vocabulary to express what it is.
Malcolm Wicks: I like the idea
of a lot of words floating around a select committee. You are
right except that there is a family of things here. The thing
I saw in Copenhagen, a whacking great power station doing wonderful
Combined Heat and Power, was local at one level, for much of Copenhagen
but rather different from the windmill I want to put on my roof.
Chairman: I am more interested in a solar
panel on mine, but having a listed building they will not let
me of course.
Q592 Rob Marris: Who built and paid
for that power station in Copenhagen? Was it private sector or
public sector or private with public monies in it?
Malcolm Wicks: I think private
sector but with encouragement from public policy. I am sorry but
I am not at all sure.
Q593 Chairman: I am sure Greenpeace
are listening to this session and I am sure they will write to
Mr Marris and the Committee to tell us more about that power station.
Malcolm Wicks: They will.
Q594 Chairman: May I just bang a
particular drum? I was very disappointed by your lack of ambition
in the document for micro-hydro installations "limited by
the availability of suitable locations". I should just like
to draw your attention to Worcester city, where I live. Powick
Mills on the Teme had a hydro station in 1894 which produced electricity
for half of the city until 1950. Fladbury Mill in my constituency
produced electricity for the whole village until the mains came
there. There is a lot of opportunity here for micro hydro. Can
I encourage you to be a bit more robust?
Malcolm Wicks: It was remiss of
us not to mention that example in the Energy Review document.
Q595 Chairman: It was.
Malcolm Wicks: It does remind
us, does it not, that the watermills and all of those things were
there centuries before someone came up with the terrible term
"distributed energy".
Q596 Chairman: Exactly. The idea
that hydro all comes from big dams in Scotland is misleading.
There are lots of local English opportunities and Welsh opportunities
to do it. Finally may I just clarify? Do you know whether the
Leader of the House has any plans to give the House a debate on
the progress on the Energy Review? Is that something you are pressing
for?
Malcolm Wicks: I do not know of
any plans. I should certainly welcome such a debate.
Q597 Chairman: It would be helpful
to have a debate before the publication of the White Paper certainly;
it is such an important subject.
Malcolm Wicks: I should welcome
a debate. Certainly we have not really had the time today, have
we, to explore all the issues?
Q598 Chairman: No; exactly. The timing
of the White Paper again? Are you prepared on reflection to give
us more clarity about the timing of the White Paper?
Malcolm Wicks: Yes, I can do that:
next year.
Chairman: An honest answer anyhow. Minister,
thank you very much. We have put you through not the windmill
but the mill today and you have responded magnificently. Thank
you very much indeed.
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