Edward
Miliband: If I were giving star ratings to the hon.
Gentleman’s amendments, amendment No. 72 would be low down the
list—indeed, I am not sure that it would receive more than one
star. Let me explain why.
The matters set out in paragraphs
(a) and (b) of proposed new subsection (Z1) are for the Charity
Commission, which will have to provide an annual report to Parliament.
Paragraphs (c), (d) and (e) have only tangential relevance to the Bill.
However many important claims I would make for the Bill, I would not
claim that it will have a huge impact on the operation of gift aid, the
total net cost of value added tax or the number and value of central
Government contracts, although that is not to say that some of the
other things that are being done will not affect them. All Departments
produce an annual report, which will certainly cover issues such as
those that the hon. Gentleman has raised.
Martin
Horwood: If the Minister were to give an assurance that
his Department’s annual report will cover all the subjects in
the amendment, I would happily withdraw
it.
Edward
Miliband: I will not do that, but I shall give the hon.
Gentleman the assurance that we will attempt to cover the issues that
he raises, while of course respecting the fact that tax—as I am
sure even the Liberal Democrats know—is a matter for Her
Majesty’s Treasury. I would not want to trespass upon that
territory, but I am sure that the more general issues affecting the
charitable sector will be covered in the annual
report.
Peter
Bottomley: While the Minister is dealing gently and fairly
with the hon. Member for Cheltenham, could he tell the Committee what
kind of person he might have in mind to commence the review? Also,
given that the clause says that the review should start within five
years of the passing of the legislation, roughly how long does the
Minister think the review might
take?
Edward
Miliband: I believe that the review is to be conducted by
central Government. That is the commitment made in the Bill. If the
hon. Gentleman is proposing himself a potential reviewer, I am sure
that he will be considered by the relevant Minister at the time. No
doubt the hon. Gentleman has important qualifications in that
respect.
Edward
Miliband: I was going to say that I hoped that the hon.
Gentleman would be satisfied with that, but I should have known
better.
Peter
Bottomley: If it was intended that central Government
conduct the review, the Bill would make that plain, but subsection (1)
states: “The
Secretary of State must, before the end of the period of five years
beginning with the day on which this Act is passed, appoint a person to
review generally the operation of this
Act.” I am not saying that
Minister ought to know five years in advance the name of the person who
might be appointed, but perhaps on Report he can give an illustrative
example of how that appointment might take place and say whether the
report should be completed within one or two
years.
Edward
Miliband: I give that
undertaking.
Martin
Horwood: I am grateful to the Minister for his comments,
from which I take some comfort. If he is going to attempt to address
the relative benefits of the various tax breaks and the tax cost of
irrecoverable VAT in his annual report, as I think he undertook to
do—
Edward
Miliband indicated
dissent.
Martin
Horwood: Well, he said that he would attempt to cover
those issues. I am sure that his hon. Friends in the Treasury would
look kindly on his addressing at least the impact of the tax
implications of VAT on sector, but if that is not possible, perhaps he
could encourage the Chancellor to do so another time. Under those
circumstances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the
amendment. Amendment,
by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 72 ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
Clause
73Orders
and
regulations
Edward
Miliband: I beg to move amendmentNo. 191, in
clause 73, page 78, line 16, at
end insert— ‘(ba) any
regulations under section (Disclosure of information to and by Northern
Ireland
regulator),’.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the
following: Government amendments Nos. 192, 194 to 199 and
193. Government new
clause 14—Disclosure of information to and by Northern
Ireland
regulator.
Edward
Miliband: The amendments are relatively technical. I
apologise to the Committee for their late tabling on Tuesday. We have
tried to avoid tabling bundles of amendments at the last minute, but it
took longer to prepare these amendments than I had hoped. I shall
briefly explain what they will do.
The revised version of section
10 of the Charities Act 1993 provides for the disclosure of information
to and by the Charity Commission. It includes specific provisions
relating to the exchange of information by the commissioners for
Revenue and Customs.
The purpose of the Government
amendments is fourfold. First, they will modernise the
information-sharing gateway between the commissioners for Revenue and
Customs and the Charity Commission to reflect changes to the way in
which HMRC wishes to disclose information following the passing of the
Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005. Secondly, the
amendments will extend the gateway for the sharing of information,
including Revenue and Customs information, to principal regulators of
exempt charities. Thirdly, they make provision for sharing of
information including commissioners of Revenue and Customs’
information with the proposed regulator of charities in Northern
Ireland. Finally, they make some minor changes to the rules governing
disclosure of other information to and by the Charity Commission. I hope
that that brief explanation satisfies the
Committee. Peter
Bottomley: I am sure that what the Minister has outlined
makes sense. I congratulate peopleon spotting one or two of
the moves from “commissioners” to
“commission”, which are a consequence of earlier parts of
the Bill. Is
Government new clause 14 precedented? The Minister will know that it
relates to the provision whereby, if a charity commission in Northern
Ireland is established, various other things happen. I can see the
reason for the new clause, and it makes sense, but is it a legislative
innovation?
Edward
Miliband: I gather that it is not a legislative
innovation.
Amendment agreed
to. Amendment
made: No. 192, in clause 73, page 78, line 21, after
‘(b),’ insert ‘(ba),’.—[Edward
Miliband.] Clause
73, as amended, ordered to stand part of the
Bill.
Clause
74Amendments,
repeals, revocations and transitional
provisions Question
put, That the clause stand part of the
Bill.
Peter
Bottomley: I think that the clause is drafted to provide a
sensible and limited power. The guts of it are subsections (4) and (5).
Subsection (4) states:
“The Secretary of State
may by order
make— (a)
such supplementary, incidental or consequential provision,
or (b) such transitory,
transitional or saving
provision as he considers
appropriate for the general purposes, or any particular purpose of this
Act or in consequence of, or for giving full effect to, any provision
made by this Act.”
Subsection (5) states:
“An order made under
subsection (4) may amend, repeal, revoke or otherwise modify any
enactment.” The first
three subsections of the clause are relevant to schedules 8, 9 and 10,
but subsections (4) and (5) are not tied to them. I am not suggesting
that the Minister has created the opportunity to drove a coach and
horses through any part of charity law provision, but I would like the
Committee to have his reassurance on what the limitations
are.
Edward
Miliband: My understanding is that there are constraints
in the legislation, but to be fair to the hon. Gentleman, I should
write to him and set them out on paper.
Question put and agreed
to. Clause 74
ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule
8Minor
and consequential
amendments Amendment
made: No. 180, in schedule 8, page 133, line 17, at end
insert— ‘Police,
Factories, &c. (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1916(c.
31)14A (1) Section 5 of
the Police, Factories, &c. (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1916
(regulation of street collections) is amended as
follows. (2) In subsection (1)
for “the benefit of charitable or other purposes,”
substitute “any purposes in circumstances not involving the
making of a charitable
appeal,”. (3) In
paragraph (b) of the proviso to subsection (1) omit the words from
“, and no representation”
onwards. (4) In subsection (4)
before the definition of “street”
insert— ““charitable
appeal” has the same meaning as in Chapter 1 of Part 3 of the
Charities Act 2006;”’.—[Edward
Miliband.]
Edward
Miliband: I beg to move amendmentNo. 181, in
schedule 8, page 138, line 24, at
end insert— ‘Sex
Discrimination Act 1975 (c.
65)In section 21A of the Sex
Discrimination Act 1975 (public authorities) in paragraph 14 in the
Table of Exceptions in subsection (9), for “Charity
Commissioners for England and Wales” substitute “Charity
Commission”.’.
The
Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss
Government amendments Nos. 182, 59 to 61, 63 and 64 and 184 to
187.
Edward
Miliband: The group consists entirely of minor or
technical
amendments. Amendment
agreed
to. Amendments
made: No. 182, in schedule 8, page 143, leave out lines 21 to
29. No. 183, in
schedule 8, page 144, line 31, at
end insert— ‘91A In section
79 (short title, commencement and extent)
omit— (a) in subsection
(6), the words “(subject to subsection (7))”,
and (b) subsection
(7). 91B In Schedule 7
(repeals) omit the entry relating to the Police, Factories, &c.
(Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1916
(c. 31).’. No.
59, in
schedule 8, page 144, line 33, at
end insert— ‘92A In the
heading for Part 1, for “CHARITY COMMISSIONERS”
substitute “CHARITY
COMMISSION”.’. No.
194, in
schedule 8, page 145, line 32, leave
out
‘COMMISSION’S’. No.
195, in
schedule 8, page 146, line 32, leave
out paragraph 99 and
insert— ‘99 For section 10
substitute— “10
Disclosure of information to
Commission (1) Any relevant
public authority may disclose information to the Commission if the
disclosure is made for the purpose of
enabling or assisting the Commission to discharge any of its
functions. (2) But Revenue and
Customs information may be disclosed under subsection (1) only if it
relates to an institution, undertaking or body falling within one (or
more) of the following
paragraphs— (a) a
charity; (b) an institution
which is established for charitable, benevolent or philanthropic
purposes; (c) an institution by
or in respect of which a claim for exemption has at any time been made
under section 505(1) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act
1988; (d) a subsidiary
undertaking of a charity; (e) a
body entered in the Scottish Charity Register which is managed or
controlled wholly or mainly in or from England or
Wales. (3) In subsection (2)(d)
above “subsidiary undertaking of a charity” means an
undertaking (as defined by section 259(1) of the Companies Act 1985) in
relation to which— (a) a
charity is (or is to be treated as) a parent undertaking in accordance
with the provisions of section 258 of, and Schedule 10A to, the
Companies Act 1985, or (b) two
or more charities would, if they were a single charity, be (or be
treated as) a parent undertaking in accordance with those
provisions. (4) For the
purposes of the references to a parent
undertaking— (a) in
subsection (3) above, and (b)
in section 258 of, and Schedule 10A to, the Companies Act 1985 as they
apply for the purposes of that
subsection, “undertaking”
includes a charity which is not an undertaking as defined by section
259(1) of that Act. 10A
Disclosure of information by
Commission (1) Subject to
subsections (2) and (3) below, the Commission may disclose to any
relevant public authority any information received by the Commission in
connection with any of the Commission’s
functions— (a) if the
disclosure is made for the purpose of enabling or assisting the
relevant public authority to discharge any of its functions,
or (b) if the information so
disclosed is otherwise relevant to the discharge of any of the
functions of the relevant public
authority. (2) In the case of
information disclosed to the Commission under section 10(1) above, the
Commission’s power to disclose the information under subsection
(1) above is exercisable subject to any express restriction subject to
which the information was disclosed to the
Commission. (3) Subsection (2)
above does not apply in relation to Revenue and Customs information
disclosed to the Commission under section 10(1) above; but any such
information may not be further disclosed (whether under subsection (1)
above or otherwise) except with the consent of the Commissioners for
Her Majesty’s Revenue and
Customs. (4) Any responsible
person who discloses information in contravention of subsection (3)
above is guilty of an offence and
liable— (a) on summary
conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a
fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or
both; (b) on conviction on
indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a
fine, or both. (5) It is a
defence for a responsible person charged with an offence under
subsection (4) above of disclosing information to prove that he
reasonably believed— (a)
that the disclosure was lawful,
or (b) that the information had
already and lawfully been
made available to the
public. (6) In the application
of this section to Scotland or Northern Ireland, the reference to 12
months in subsection (4) is to be read as a reference to 6
months. (7) In this section
“responsible person” means a person who is or
was— (a) a member of the
Commission, (b) a member of the
staff of the Commission, (c) a
person acting on behalf of the Commission or a member of the staff of
the Commission, or (d) a member
of a committee established by the
Commission. 10B Disclosure to
and by principal regulators of exempt
charities (1) Sections 10 and
10A above apply with the modifications in subsections (2) to (4) below
in relation to the disclosure of information to or by the principal
regulator of an exempt
charity. (2) References in
those sections to the Commission or to any of its functions are to be
read as references to the principal regulator of an exempt charity or
to any of the functions of that body or person as principal regulator
in relation to the charity. (3)
Section 10 above has effect as if for subsections (2) and (3) there
were
substituted— “(2)
But Revenue and Customs information may be disclosed under subsection
(1) only if it relates
to— (a) the exempt
charity in relation to which the principal regulator has functions as
such, or (b) a subsidiary
undertaking of the exempt
charity. (3) In subsection
(2)(b) above “subsidiary undertaking of the exempt
charity” means an undertaking (as defined by section 259(1) of
the Companies Act 1985) in relation to
which— (a) the exempt
charity is (or is to be treated as) a parent undertaking in accordance
with the provisions of section 258 of, and Schedule 10A to, the
Companies Act 1985, or (b) the
exempt charity and one or more other charities would, if they were a
single charity, be (or be treated as) a parent undertaking in
accordance with those
provisions.” (4) Section
10A above has effect as if for the definition of “responsible
person” in subsection (7) there were substituted a definition
specified by regulations under section 13(4)(b) of the Charities Act
2006 (regulations prescribing principal
regulators). (5) Regulations
under that section may also make such amendments or other modifications
of any enactment as the Secretary of State considers appropriate for
securing that any disclosure provisions that would otherwise apply in
relation to the principal regulator of an exempt charity do not apply
in relation to that body or person in its or his capacity as principal
regulator. (6) In subsection
(5) above “disclosure provisions” means provisions having
effect for authorising, or otherwise in connection with, the disclosure
of information by or to the principal regulator
concerned. 10C Disclosure of
information: supplementary (1)
In sections 10 and 10A above “relevant public authority”
means— (a) any
government department (including a Northern Ireland
department), (b) any local
authority, (c) any constable,
and (d) any other body or
person discharging functions of a public nature (including a body or
person discharging regulatory functions in relation to any description
of activities). (2) In section
10A above “relevant public authority” also includes any
body or person within subsection (1)(d) above in a country or territory
outside the United Kingdom.
(3) In sections 10 to 10B above and this
section— “enactment”
has the same meaning as in the Charities Act
2006; “Revenue and
Customs information” means information held as mentioned in
section 18(1) of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act
2005. (4) Nothing in sections
10 and 10A above (or in those sections as applied by section 10B(1) to
(4) above) authorises the making of a disclosure
which— (a) contravenes
the Data Protection Act 1998,
or (b) is prohibited by Part 1
of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act
2000.”’. No.
60, in
schedule 8, page 148, line 41, after
‘was”,’,
insert— ‘(ba) for
“they act” substitute “it
acts”,’.—[Edward
Miliband.]
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